Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast

DEP E105
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[00:00:00]

Pizza Throwing Incident
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Kim Carlton: I remember there was an operator who just really didn't like inspectors and didn't want me in his space and threw pizza at me. Like, that will stick in my memory.

Francine L Shaw: Having things thrown at you does stick in you?

Matt Regusci: Oh my god, people were chucking pizza at you?

Kim Carlton: Yeah, I mean...

Matt Regusci: Like a frisbee or was it like flat face?

Kim Carlton: Uh, flat face. It hit the door. I was like at the door.

Francine L Shaw: You learn to be very reactive, very quick. It's like, damn, I can duck.

Kim Carlton: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Introduction to Food Safety Heroes
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intro: Everybody' sgotta eat. Nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points. From the supply chain to the point of sale. Join industry veterans Francine L. Shaw and Matt Ragushi for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule. Don't. Eat. Poop.

Don't [00:01:00] eat poop.

Interview with Kim Carlton
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Matt Regusci: Well, hello, hello, Francine. Hey, Matt. So we have another amazing person to interview today here at the, gosh, I keep, I keep forgetting what the actual acronym is, is I E H A, FDA.

Francine L Shaw: For two days he has no idea where the hell he's at, and we're not drinking.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. I don't drink anymore.

Francine L Shaw: I don't drink. Not much. I don't drink much.

He doesn't drink at all.

Matt Regusci: Yeah.

Yeah, but it's the I. E. H. A. Which is what? In Illinois Environmental Health Association.

Francine L Shaw: There's a sticker like right in front of you over there.

Matt Regusci: It's great.

Francine L Shaw: FDA and Illinois Environmental Health Association.

Matt Regusci: Very, very good Francine. We got it. Okay. And uh, we're doing a lot of interviews, but we're really excited about this one because Kim's going to be able to explain what she does in Minnesota. It goes back to what we were talking about with Doug about how everything is different in the United States with federalism, the federal government, the [00:02:00] states, the counties, the municipalities, they all have their own way of doing things. And we're blessed to have Kim here to talk about how Minnesota does that.

And it's a good example, I think, for other states as well about how they do it. And so, Kim. Go ahead, introduce yourself and tell us about your multiple different hats that you wear.

Kim Carlton: Thanks. Yeah.

Minnesota's Unique Food Safety Structure
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Kim Carlton: So, um, Kim, uh, Kim Carlton, I work with the Minnesota Department of Agriculture. I manage the Retail Food Safety Program there.

And in Minnesota, retail food is, I won't say unique, it's a patchwork, right? So our duties for retail food between the Department of Health at the state level and the Department of Agriculture at the state level, we both have our statutory authority to regulate these spaces. But what we've done is we have a memorandum of understanding between our agencies.

Department of Health covers things like restaurants, school food service, basically our foods of those types of places. Department of Agriculture, we cover the grocery store side, the convenience store side. [00:03:00] We own the cottage food exclusion, so although we don't license to, and both the Department of Health and Department of Agriculture delegate that authority to some local municipalities as well.

It could be a city. It could be a county. It could be a multi county. So depending on where you are in the state of Minnesota and what type of retail food you sell, it could be one of 30 different agencies that regulate you.

Francine L Shaw: So I live in Pennsylvania. Yep. Also, Department of Ag operates the food safety aspect.

Yeah. And it's very similar. Yeah. I understand what you're talking about.

Matt Regusci: So you're not working in a municipality then?

Kim Carlton: No, I work at the state level, so my inspectors, they cover about, gosh, geographically, most of the delegated agencies that we have are largely concentrated in the Minneapolis metropolitan, and we have seven of them.

But our inspectors are dispersed throughout the state of Minnesota, and they are state [00:04:00] employees doing state inspections.

Matt Regusci: Got it. I find this fascinating. So, the Health Department, they're running all the restaurants and you're running on the Ag Department, all the retail convenience stores, that type of stuff.

Both of you could be like, if we were to you, and you don't have to answer this if you want, but like with Boar's Head, for instance, so the restaurants that are selling Boar's Head meat in like a deli type of thing. They're going to be looking at this one way from the Health Department side. And then you're going to be looking at it from the retail side that also has deli sandwiches and sells deli meat with your own inspections.

Are you, do you guys have the same type of inspection? Are you using similar templates or is it different in that way as well?

Kim Carlton: Yeah, that's all exactly correct. What you just said. So every jurisdiction, no matter if they're state or local in Minnesota, is all following the same Minnesota Food Code. So, at least from that perspective, we're all regulating to the same level.

As far as how we do our inspections, of course, there's going to be a little bit of variability in that. We are fairly standardized throughout the [00:05:00] state, though. Many of the agencies have enrolled in the program standards. If they haven't met all the program standards or at least working on them. So I would say most of our agencies are doing things fairly consistently, which is nice.

Francine L Shaw: So if I'm retail with a restaurant inside.

Kim Carlton: Right. So yeah, now we get into the nuances and the nitty gritty of, uh, some of these agreements that we have. Right. The industry. Absolutely. Yep. So if it's a restaurant inside of a grocery store. Depending on who owns the restaurant, it may be part of the grocery store umbrella, so it may be inspected by Department of Ag.

If it's truly a stand alone restaurant with independent ownership, that may be inspected by the Health Department side of things. So they could have Two separate inspections, two separate inspectors. They could, yeah, but it would be limited to whatever those spaces are.

Matt Regusci: Like a Target with a Starbucks. Yes.

They are the [00:06:00] franchisee of Starbucks. They basically own that franchise, so that Starbucks would then be audited under Target, as opposed to the Starbucks that would be on the corner across the street from Target. They would have their own one done by the Health Department.

Francine L Shaw: I used to do those. So I did all as one.

It was all encompassed. Yep. Because. They were part of that group. Exactly. They didn't stand independently from the target. They were part of the target organization, right? Because.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. Yeah. It's fascinating. And so you guys are all doing kind of the same inspections just in two different areas. How do you guys manage data?

Like where does that all go? Is it all on one website or if someone wants to go see the health inspections of the retailers or their local 7 Eleven, they have to go to one place and then the restaurants in the same city or county, they go someplace else.

Kim Carlton: So in the state of Minnesota, we don't actually post our inspections as a general rule.

The city of Minneapolis does independently post their restaurant inspections and there are grocery [00:07:00] inspections online. But I believe that may be the only jurisdiction in Minnesota where you can find that data online as a civilian.

Matt Regusci: Got it. Okay. So that was kind of like going in our talk earlier about Illinois does do every, has everything online, but other states do not.

And Minnesota would be one of those other states.

Kim Carlton: We are. Yes.

Matt Regusci: Got it. You also have a job as Board of Directors on NEHA, National Environmental Health Association. What are you doing with them as well?

Kim Carlton: Department of Agriculture, I actually worked at the Department of Health for many years. And prior to that, I worked at local health agencies, some of these agencies that we delegated to.

So my experience in the field has been pretty well rounded from County Health Department, City Health Department. I did foodborne investigations as a grad student. So I've been sort of an environmental health generalist for many years before focusing in on just retail food safety in my later years here.

But along with that, I was involved with the Minnesota Environmental Health Association for many, many years. I was [00:08:00] on the board of directors there. I was on committees. And so when there was an opportunity to serve on the  National Environmental Health Association's Board of Directors, it seemed like a next, you know, natural progression. So in that role, I am representing the six states in my region.

So region four includes Minnesota, North Dakota, South Dakota, Iowa, Nebraska, and Wisconsin. That's always a puzzle for myself to remember all six of them. But yeah, I represent the environmental health specialists in this region up to the national board. And, you know, as part of that, you know, we kind of help drive the mission and you know, the vision of the national organization.

So it's a really wonderful opportunity. It's a great experience to work with such amazing professionals from across the country.

Matt Regusci: So that's super cool. So you started with the Health Department. So you started doing like mom and pop restaurants and now you're, you're in the retail side of things. What's the difference between the two?

Like Is there a [00:09:00] big difference between them or is it just another, just a different type of inspection, a different type of area?

Kim Carlton: You know, it's interesting you ask that because I've been thinking about this quite a bit lately, actually. So from where I sit now, I've been doing this for, you know, 25 years now.

Francine L Shaw: Wow.

Kim Carlton: You're very kind. Yes. Um...

Matt Regusci: Wow! You look amazingly young.

Kim Carlton: Well, thank you.

Matt Regusci: I'm like, I'm not just saying that. That's amazing. 25 years. Wow.

Kim Carlton: I'll show you my ID later. You know, as I've moved through the different agencies in the different seats that I've sat in, you know, from intern to inspector to supervisor to now, you know, statewide program manager, wherever you sit at the time in your current experience, I think you perceive as like, well, this is the way it is.

This is the way this works, right? So when I started as an intern at this county Health Department, you know, I wasn't doing food then I was scrambling around in drainage ditches, taking water samples. I was like, Oh, this is obviously how environmental [00:10:00] health works in the whole world. You know, we have our filing cabinet full of paper inspection reports and we have licensed signup day at the library. That was my experience. That was how we did environmental health.

And then I went to the city Health Department as my first big girl job. City of Minneapolis, right? In the inner city. And it was, Oh, okay, this is how we do environmental health. Now, you know, we have hundreds of businesses and, you know, it's very organized and, you know, I didn't realize that the state authority had been given to the city by the state.

So when I heard people at the city complaining about, well, why is the state telling us to do things this way? You know, I was like, yeah, why are they telling us to do? This is our program. Why do they get to tell us? And now as I've moved through experience and understanding why things are the way they are, you know, we want consistency.

We want things done a certain way. We want to make sure that the agencies are doing things legally. From where I sit now, it's like, okay, so we are all [00:11:00] doing the same work, but my perspective has changed quite a bit over the years.

Challenges Faced by Inspectors
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Francine L Shaw: So, when you were 12, based on the way you look, and you did your first, you know, you went out in the field and you started doing inspections, right?

And weren't it naive? I don't care how old you were, or I was, and you go out and you start doing your first inspections. You know, we're looking at it through these rose colored glasses, you know, with how we're going to help people and we're going to change things. And, you know, what are, were some of the challenges that you faced and that experiences that you had as an inspector?

Kim Carlton: Yeah. Um, well, yeah, I did look young when I started. So I got a lot of the, are you an intern or can I talk to your boss? Got hit on a lot. Um, you know, I heard you mention you were sexually assaulted. That definitely has happened in my past. I was assaulted. Okay. I was assaulted.

Matt Regusci: Wow.

Francine L Shaw: Oh my God. [00:12:00]

Kim Carlton: Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: I was back against the wall when it was like I was scared, but I was not assaulted. Yeah, God bless you.

Matt Regusci: I think we could have said that assault now backing you against the wall is yeah. Yeah, but whatever.

Kim Carlton: Yeah. So anyway, I digress that could be a whole other topic, you know, the safety of inspectors and inspectors, especially but Yeah, I mean, being taken seriously, that was always something that, I didn't struggle with it, but it was something that people question your authority, right, when you're in there.

I remember there was an operator who just really didn't like inspectors and didn't want me in the space and threw pizza at me. Like, that will stick in my memory.

Francine L Shaw: Having things thrown at you does stick in you?

Matt Regusci: Oh my god, people were chucking pizza at you?

Kim Carlton: Yeah, I mean.

Matt Regusci: Like a frisbee or was it like flat face?

Kim Carlton: Uh, flat face. It hit the door. I was like at the door.

Francine L Shaw: You learn to be very reactive very quick. It's like, damn, I can duck.

Kim Carlton: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. [00:13:00] Thankfully, the agencies that I've worked with have always approached the work as like a collaborative experience and not as a law enforcer. We've tried to, you know, partner with the businesses.

So that's the culture that I was kind of raised up in to do the inspection. So thankfully I had, you know, support and tools to try to like work with operators to gain compliance if needed. But...

Francine L Shaw: It's tough.

Kim Carlton: Yeah, it is tough.

Francine L Shaw: And you know. You know, I said about, you know, yeah, I'm, I'm a little bit older than you are.

So it's like, well, of course I did the inspections when I was older as opposed to, you know, when I was when I was much younger, but I've been in the industry a lot longer. And when I was working in restaurants, you know, the shit that I put up with as a woman was like unbelievable. And I write, I wrote a book and I write about a lot of this in the book that I wrote.

You know, we, we've come a long way as, as women, but not far enough. And I've been to a [00:14:00] lot of conferences lately and talked to a lot of, a lot of younger women. And the fact that they're still dealing with this just amazes me because, you know, some of us that have been around a while have worked very hard to try to overcome that.

And it's like we should, I'm very fortunate because even still there's many times I'm the only woman at the table, you know, at the level, you know, I've achieved, there aren't a, a lot of women even at your level, right. You know, there's not a lot of women at the table, so you'll go to meetings and you know, we're the only female decision makers sitting there.

Yeah. And I'm very fortunate 'cause I work with a lot of men that are very respectful. And appreciate my opinion. And, you know, I say fortunate, but that's the way it should be. Absolutely. You know, that's how it should be. And, you know, for, to hear the stories of these younger women that aren't being treated that way [00:15:00] breaks my heart because.

That's just wrong. Yeah. It's just wrong.

Kim Carlton: Yep. I totally agree. You know, I was just sitting here thinking about other experiences that I've had and there's, you know, there's that perspective of it. There's also the perspective of the operators who just know everything and will go out of their way to go over your head.

And one experience, I'll never forget this either. I was an, you know, I was an inspector, I went to this restaurant, I was actually covering a territory for a coworker who was on leave. And so I'd never been in this restaurant before. And it was one of these sort of celebrity chef restaurants. He wasn't there that day.

So I was working with this sous chef and I questioned one of the products that they were making because I knew that it was not being prepared according to the Food Code. But I was willing to, you know. You tell me, like, tell me how this complies. You know, I don't think I even wrote it up as a violation.

I just had the conversation with the chef and, or the sous chef, and then I think I followed up with an email to [00:16:00] the chef saying, you know, can you give me some more information about this? And the chef did not follow up with me with more information. He called the mayor's office and, you know, told him how mean I was being and then he called the local newspaper and told them how mean I was being and then on the front page of the newspaper Below the fold for those of you who remember newspapers, but still the front page of the newspaper, was a giant picture of the chef holding something and the headline was and in this corner Chef so and so against the Health Department.

I was like, what on Earth? Like all I asked was a simple question about how you prepare this certain dish and rather than being a grown up and having a conversation with me about it because how dare I question your culinary, you know skills and abilities, you went to the mayor and you went to the like, that just really turned me off.

I will say that story has kind of a happy ending at this point. Over the years, we did start to work [00:17:00] together in a good way. And I can actually say this chef is kind of a buddy of mine now, but that really stung to like have that thrown in my face on such a huge level at that point in my career.

Matt Regusci: And how does that like, this is, this is where I find it fascinating.

Maybe due to my experience, I'm being naive about this. How does that benefit him to have on the front page of the newspaper that he's fighting the Health Department over something? Maybe people are going to be like, yeah, you fight the good fight, bro. But I think a lot of people are reading that going, gee, I wonder what, what the Health Department was like, what was the issue in there? Like what was going on?

Kim Carlton: Absolutely. In hindsight, I'm like, yeah, I mean, he just called himself out for doing something that wasn't compliant with the code, but Yeah, I don't know. I can't see any possible benefit to it. I also, you know, there's a story that I like to tell, so I actually still have this paper file in my filing cabinet of all the documents from the newspaper articles.

It was a restaurant and I [00:18:00] visited them over 30 times in three years because of cockroach infestations, foodborne illness outbreaks, standing raw sewage in the kitchen. It was bad and they were very popular, you know, but oh my gosh, at the time, the agency I worked with didn't have a great enforcement process because it was so political.

In fact, I'll sidebar here. In a previous year, there was an inspector who shut down a restaurant for like a day. I forget what the circumstances were, but the mayor actually not only reopened the restaurant, but also declared it such and such restaurant day in the city as like, I'm sorry for your hassle to the operator rather than backing up the Health Department.

But anyway, so that was the kind of political climate that that city was in so that it took over 30 visits over three years. High profile City Council meetings, which then got the attention of the media and all of the photo documentation I'd been taking and I don't feel good about that [00:19:00] story, but yeah, even with that all happening, this restaurant had supporters, including City Council people, like going in there with news anchors saying, I'll eat here any day of the week.

And I'm like, tell me about the, how the cockroaches taste.

Matt Regusci: Tell me how the cockroaches taste.

Francine L Shaw: So, yes. So say, you know, you were dealing with a bigger city than what I was, but it's like talking to this man and he's like, and I don't know why you won't let me open it. A big cockroach is crawling across the table in front of us and he slaps his hand and scoots it off.

Same guy that threatened me with a gun, you know, and that's why you're not opening it. He's swatting his cockroach on the floor.

Kim Carlton: Yeah. In this place they were actually catching the cockroaches and putting them in those little plastic condiment cups. And then lining them up on the shelves and each cup had a name on it.

Like they were naming their cockroach pets.

Matt Regusci: What? They were like proud of it? They like had like cockroach pets?

Kim Carlton: It was really bad.

Francine L Shaw: Like, people always think, like, because you pay a lot of money for your food, it's the best restaurant. I would have [00:20:00] eaten off the floor in Taco Bell. You know what I mean? Because that place was clean.

No, I'm exaggerating. This place is like $100 a plate or more. And they're swiping cockroaches on the floor. And the chilled forks that you're eating off of, they're stored straight on black frost in the freezer. Ugh. Not on plates, not on pans, straight on the black ice frost that's in the freezer.

Kim Carlton: Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: Like employees... I caught an employee, they had plywood on the shelving and it was like black.

There was, I walked in and there was an employee crawling on his hands and knees through the china.

Kim Carlton: Oh my gosh.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah. And I'm speaking to City Council.

Kim Carlton: Yeah. It's just wild. Some of the stuff that we've seen.

Francine L Shaw: It's craziness. So yes, I can relate. It's, you know. Naming the cockroaches? I mean, were they in races?

Kim Carlton: I don't know what they were doing with them, but I, that was...

Francine L Shaw: Go, Bob, go.

Matt Regusci: Like that.

Like that movie Turbo with the snails and stuff. Yeah, it's like cockroaches, [00:21:00] racing cockroaches. That's hilarious.

Francine L Shaw: You've come a long way from there. Congratulations.

Kim Carlton: Thank you. Thank you so much.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts
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Francine L Shaw: I always say, so people ask me a lot of times, like I've been through a lot, not just like with the, you know, the inspections and just a lot in general.

And people always say to me, it's like, do you have any regrets? Or is there anything that you would do different? My answer to that is no, because it's made me who I am. And I'm happy with the person that I am. How do you feel?

Kim Carlton: Oh, absolutely. I, I wouldn't change a thing. I've gone through a lot, but I find this work so rewarding just knowing that we are helping our communities.

We are not only serving ourselves and our, our agencies that we work for, but my family, my grandparents, you know, my friends and the work that I do serves everybody. I know, you know, everybody who lives, works, plays in our communities and it's... yeah, it's hard work some days, but, man, I can't think of [00:22:00] a different career that would have been this fulfilling for me personally.

Matt Regusci: That's beautiful. That's so cool. And with that, I think we'll, we'll probably end. So we have advice that we like to share with everybody and that is don't eat poop.