Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast

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Matt Regusci: You and I had a full blown conversation about the impact of that. It's just a small amount of money compared to everything else the FDA spends money on. We're talking like less than 40 million dollars and 400 people are out performing inspections using that money and the FDA has a hard time getting a thousand inspections done in a year from their own internal staff.

And you're going to can the state departments that are doing your work for you because you're going to put that money into raises for people who aren't really doing any. The FDA does a lot of stuff. But the mandate from the government is you need to go out and inspect plants. And they're not, they're doing like everything else, but that in terms of what they do, they do.

But like, it's minuscule compared to what they're supposed to do. Boots on the ground doing it and they don't want to pay them.

intro: Everybody's gotta eat, and nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points. From the supply chain, to the point of sale. Join industry veterans Francine L. Shaw and Matt Ragucci for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule.

Don't. Eat. Poop. Don't eat poop. Hello,

Matt Regusci: hello, Francine. Hey, Matt. We had a very exciting week, didn't we?

Francine L Shaw: We did. We had a very good week, connected with some old friends, met some new friends.

Matt Regusci: Yes. So what we're talking about is we just got back from Food Safety Consortium and wow, what a difference from the last few years.

How many times was last year the first time you were at Food Safety Consortium?

Francine L Shaw: No, I actually was on a panel probably three years ago at the consortium. And then the last two years, we've done the podcast at the consortium. Oh, I've been there. It was probably my third or fourth year at the consortium.

First of all, that event is much different than the other events, the other conferences that, I attend, you attend, and this year it was much different than in years past.

I walked in a little bit before you did. It was in Washington, D. C., a very nice venue, and when I walked in, I felt like, and I wasn't late, but I felt like I was late because, um, breakfast was set up.

And it was in open area like the what's that? Is that an atrium where the sun is coming through that the glass above and it was a bright, sunny day. And so the sun was shining through and the room was full and there was so much energy. Everybody was talking and you could hear people laughing and the room was full and the booths were set up and we were there to record to do interviews.

And it was just such a, a welcoming environment and the energy was just incredible. And it was just so nice. Imagine that right in the middle of Washington, D. C.

Matt Regusci: Right, right in the middle of election season too.

Francine L Shaw: But yes, it was very nice.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. And you texted me too. Cause I mean, we were there the day before prepping everything, getting everything ready, which was a completely different environment, right?

Yeah. There were people there, but there, there was no need for everybody to be there right then there. So that next morning, you're like, we agreed, okay, we're going to be at nine o'clock and we had people set up for interviews and at 815 Francine text me. Where are you? Like head it over. We're supposed to meet at nine.

You're like, there's everybody is here. The environment is amazing. You're missing out. So then I had FOMO going on because I'm like, wait, what's going on? So congratulations, Rick, and your team at Food Safety Tech for really dialing that in. And yeah, it was funny because we were there last year. We recorded a bunch of interviews last year in New Jersey.

And we asked the same two questions to everybody we interviewed. One is, what do you like about Food Safety Consortium? And two is, what could be changed? Okay. Number one. Everybody loved the networking, loved the content of the conference, loved the intimacy of the conference, and Everybody complained about the location in New Jersey, right?

And this year I felt like the intimacy was 100 percent still there. The buzz was there. The networking was absolutely amazing. If you have not been to food safety consortium, but you've been to multiple different food safety Conferences really truly the food safety custodian is the best networking event that I have ever been to would you say the same thing?

Francine L Shaw: Yeah, 100 and the reason for that is it's not overwhelming You can come with an agenda Do what you? intend to do if you plan ahead looking at who's going to be there and what it is you want to accomplish and Have time to have those conversations when you go to some of these events And I'm going to next, for example, my God, that is so huge.

I get overwhelmed just walking in the door because the energy and the atmosphere is crazy, but there is so much, you almost don't know where to start. So you need a very specific agenda, and you don't really have a lot of time to do what it is you want to do or need to do because there is just so much you need to be very focused on your particular needs to do what you need to do in that arena.

Whereas here, There's a fair number of people, but it's intimate enough and there is enough time allotted that you can really speak to anybody that you want to speak to within the industry and not feel rushed or, you know, that you need to hurry up and get to the next booth or you're not going to make it to, you know, 16 blocks to the other side of the building if you don't hurry.

So in the quality of the people, everybody from the person in charge of the FDA and the USDA to leaders of multiple corporations are in this building at the same time, all ready and willing to speak to whoever would like to speak to them because they have the time to do that. And if you've not been there, I really would suggest that you take the time to attend.

The other thing is the topics. Of discussion for the breakout events. So there's something there for everybody from what's happening currently in the industry to Regulatory discussions that need to happen

Matt Regusci: and I think the dc thing changed that in new jersey There was regulatory conversations And breakouts and that type of stuff.

The people who are doing the presentations were not the actual FDA, the leader of the FDA, because it's hard for them to just, New Jersey's pretty close to DC, but it's still further away being in DC or is Arlington, Virginia, which is basically DC, Jim Jones. actually was there talking about the food reorg.

Like you had the people, Andy Kennedy, was there talking about FSMA 204. He helped write the rule. Frank Giannis was there, FSMA 204, the new traceability rule for the FDA. He helped write the rule. So many people were there that even if D. C. wasn't easy for them to get into because they don't live near D. C.

like Andy Kennedy. The people who do live in DC were able to get there easier. And it's just more of a destination place. It's easier to get to DC and like the heavy hitters of people giving presentations was On par, it was crazy. Good. We were two minutes from the airport. Literally, literally two minutes.

The airport was exactly right. Cause you dropped me off at the airport. It was two minutes from the hotel to the air. Right?

Francine L Shaw: Yeah. It was like, we were so close to the airport. So it was very easy to get in and out of him for the people that lived in DC, which the people from the USDA, the FDA, and all these organizations were literally right there.

So it didn't take a lot out of their schedule to come speak. And talk and hang out for a little while with the industry leaders, which was very nice. So I think it was a great change for them. So yeah. Yeah. And so

Matt Regusci: Rick invited us back next year. So we will be back at the food safety consortium again next year.

Excited about interviewing a bunch of people again. Our interviews at that conference are just absolutely gold. Yeah, we did an interview with Roger Hancock again to talk about recalls from Recall InfoLink. We talked with Andrew Kennedy about what's going on with iFoodDS and Newer Partners. He and I helped create that business a couple few years ago and how the implementation of FISMA 204 is going.

We talked with Tina from GFSR about what's going on with training and we talked with Steve from Afto about Fascinating about what's going on with the VRG. The decrease in funds are going to affect the states. We talked with Rick Byrus, the guy who owns Food Safety Tech and puts on Food Safety Consortium.

That was a great talk. And then Sharon Beals, what a hoot she is. Oh my gosh, she's a hoot.

Francine L Shaw: Yes. She's amazing.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. So those interviews are going to be dropping. Francine and I are going to be scheduling those out to drop about every two weeks of a normal episode. We'll have an interview from food safety consortium, or we still have some interviews that we did at the IEHA FDA conference too.

Right.

Francine L Shaw: And these, the interviews that we do at these events are so amazing. That's something that we need to do more of. The interviews at these events. I'm happy to go back at the food safety consortium next year, but like the people from the FDA and these these conferences and the input and the takeaways from those.

are amazing.

Matt Regusci: So it was a lot of fun. So, okay, what was the biggest? So you went to the food safety or woman's breakfast. I wasn't invited. Okay, whatever.

Francine L Shaw: How was there? It was good. So that started a few years ago with just four Women. Melody spearheaded that with three other women. And to think that there are now women in food safety has over a thousand women from around the world as part of that organization is absolutely just incredible.

And the room was full, absolutely full and is so full that as people were getting up and leaving from the breakfast. Our seats were being taken by other women that were coming in. So it's nice to see that many women in food safety because it's still a male dominated industry. So, yes, it was nice to see that many women involved in taking part in that breakfast networking.

It was a networking event.

Matt Regusci: What was the, like, was there like a topic, like a talk? No, it was, no, it wasn't. Oh, so it was just networking, women getting together. Right.

Francine L Shaw: Yes. Now they meet. Monthly, I'm not sure what day it is, but it's a great organization is for women to help mentor other women and just to get together, share ideas, and it's a good organization.

I had joined the group probably two years ago. For some reason, they had to change their LinkedIn page or website or something. And when that happened, I think some of us accidentally. Ended up being take something, there was a glitch because I stopped getting the information. I think I took care of it this week so that I would be added back to that list, but there's like a monthly speaker.

I believe there's a newsletter. Some of us are aging out of the industry. I hope not to be there for a while, but there are a lot of women that have been doing this for a long time. Sharon talked about that have been doing this for a long time and there's a new generation of women that need to and want to be heard.

And it gives them a resource.

Matt Regusci: I think that's just an amazing group. And yeah, people should check them out. Speaking about food safety and women and something that I saw at food safety consortium that I thought was really interesting was, we're not going to name names or companies or anything right now, but someone pretty high up in a company that's having an outbreak was at the conference and she was doing a talk and she had to go.

She gave her talk and then she had to fly out and it was like, boom,

Francine L Shaw: She's in the midst of a very serious outbreak. She's in a very serious outbreak.

Matt Regusci: Safe to say that. And everybody there was wrapping around her. Hey, is there anything I can do to help? And no one was asking details, but everybody there was just there to like, And we're talking about competitors of hers.

We're talking about people just randomly in the industry. There's consultants, there are people in the food safety, VPs of food safety, and everybody there was just consultory and helpful. And I just thought this is such a beautiful environment that we have within our community. Frankly, people will have her product in their

Francine L Shaw: freezers.

Yes, that is true. Good point. Yes. That's not what it is about. The other side of that is that Sharon's point. That she made during our interview, the seriousness that these companies take when something like this, it's not 99 percent of the time, like something that's taken lately or because they've had three years of reports that they weren't reacting to.

Something just went terribly wrong somewhere.

Matt Regusci: Yes. And with this particular one, it's one where it could happen in any facility and it's more, you have to figure out where it came from and what's going on. But I just mean, if that was. And how are we gonna fix it? Yeah, I just thought that was beautiful that people just wrapping around her

Francine L Shaw: and she did an entire presentation and nobody beat her up on that stage over what she's going through.

Right? Yes. Which is amazing.

Matt Regusci: Yes. And we even said, Hey, we need to have you on the show. And she's, Oh my gosh, I love your show. I want to be a part of the show. And I said, we won't talk about what's going on right now. And she's good because legally I can't. So for a couple of reasons,

Francine L Shaw: we know that she can't discuss that.

We know that. And we wouldn't, not just because it was her, but we can't ask anybody. Frankly, if Boar's head were to step in the door, there are certain questions. We know that we can't ask them either. So it doesn't really matter who it is.

Matt Regusci: Which is so unfortunate about the legality of our country because those are the people that we need to be asking questions from, not in a gotcha type of a way, but in a, what have you learned?

So we can make sure not to replicate this.

Francine L Shaw: Up to this point, understanding where we are in the litigation process, where are you? What would you have done differently? And from this point going forward, what would you do differently? Not like beat them up or. Just let's talk about this like a white paper kind of a case study, a case study type of.

But yeah, no, we can't do that.

Matt Regusci: So we had an experience like that. We have next week's episode is going to be the episode with Steve from Afto, which is going to be great. So we have like huge heavy hitters that we were talking to. And then we also spent a half hour talking to some guy who's brand new in the food safety industry.

He's a chef. He's been in the industry for 18 months. He helped someone write up an SQF program and he spent like a half hour talking to Francine and I about what his career path could be. You have like super heavy hitters and you have people who are just beginning in food safety all connected together and everybody was talking to everybody.

It was awesome.

Francine L Shaw: I should have given him my card and been like, I can help you with that. Savvy food safety. Let me set up an appointment with you. Yeah. No. I can't.

Matt Regusci: I know like Francine and I walked in and we got invited to every night. We were invited to some event and party or whatever, which is great. And we love going to all of those.

I think we look like zombies because after talking to people and interviewing people all day long, our brain is pretty shot. But we went to events every night and it was funny, like one guy who is running the event walks up to Francine and I and looks at us instantly recognizes us and then says, you guys are famous.

And then Francine and I are like looking around us, like behind us, like, who are you talking to? Did Howard Stern just walk in or? That was Duran. Right, right, right. We are in D. C. Did Biden walk in? Did somebody like that walk in? So. Yeah. So what was your, what would you say your biggest takeaway or learning was from Food Safety Consortium?

Francine L Shaw: Oh my God. I don't know. How many times did we say I didn't know that?

Matt Regusci: A lot.

Francine L Shaw: Steve said so much.

Matt Regusci: I know. That's going to be my takeaways from Steve. But I didn't know if you had another one.

Francine L Shaw: I don't know if there was any one takeaway. I think overall, it's not any one takeaway. It's just that it's an industry.

We work with really good people. We really do. We work with a lot of really good people and people truly do care. We need to find a way, and we talked about this with Sharon, but we need to find a way, for This to filter sort of the industry. It's not all about the bottom line. We need to stop focusing. The bottom line will take care of itself if we take care of our people.

And I've been saying that for years and so have many other people. It's like the bottom line truly will take care of itself if we take care of our people. That's part of what Tia and Jill talk about. And food safety culture is food safety culture. And it has become somewhat of a buzzword. And corporate culture, again, we talked about this with Sharon, has got to change before we can change food safety culture.

And that's where we need to start, I think, well, I know, and that's where the difference is going to be made.

Matt Regusci: One of the biggest takeaways I had was the conversation we had with Steve from Afto. That's again going to be next week's episode. So please everybody tune into that one because that was really eye opening in a lot of ways.

Thanks. One of the things I thought was fascinating was we had a and I think we should link in our previous conversation Francine about the FDA reorg because we had a previous podcast about the FDA reorg And about the FDA eliminating 34 million dollars from their budget. I think for the state departments and local departments Steve had a really good point and he said, if that money disappears from the FDA to the state departments, those people are going to disappear, 200 to 400 inspectors, and they probably won't come back again.

That scared me. That was scary.

Francine L Shaw: Which I think is a given though, any time you eliminate positions from a company, those people don't come back. No. Just sitting around waiting for their jobs to open back up and be like, oh, you know what, I've been waiting for you to give me a call. They move on to bigger and better things.

Yes. Because now they'd move on to something that they've discovered isn't as difficult or near as stressful. Yes. And make more money. And like I said to him, I would never do it again. I never did it.

Matt Regusci: Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: Zero desire to do it again.

Matt Regusci: That was eye opening to me. And also with, uh, Tina from Global Food Safety Resource, GFSR, when she talked about that new bug.

that she got in Barbados. She got a food safety bug that Francine and I didn't even know existed and she didn't know existed either until then. I can't remember what it was, but I was like, how many more of these things are out there that we just don't even know? Obviously, they're not on the top 10 for any recalls or anything like that.

So for top 30 or 40, this was just some unique bug that got her sick in food. Yeah, fascinating.

Francine L Shaw: I was working with a gentleman a few years ago and we were starting a program that we were rolling out in the hospitality industry and I was helping him with this and he wanted to use the FDA food code. It's his guideline for every country that he was working in.

And I was like, we can't do that because the foodborne illnesses that are prevalent in the states aren't going to be the same things that we need to worry about in Peru, for example. And so the, what she got, she feels certain in Barbados was something we'd never heard of. So you need to research and know the areas that you're talking about before you start setting up programs in these countries.

We can't go into Barbados and say, okay, this is the food safety program that we want to use in this country and base it on the FDA food code when you can't do that. You understand what I'm saying? 100%. And I couldn't make him understand. I ended up pulling the plug on my portion because I couldn't make him understand.

We just can't do this because the food safety world doesn't

Matt Regusci: work like that. And that's part of things that we just would not have heard of if we weren't at that conference. And it's same with other conferences too. Like every single time we go to some sort of food safety conference, we learn, at least I learned something new every single time.

And so that was fascinating though. Both of those. You and I had a full blown conversation about the impact of that. It's just a small amount of money compared to everything else the FDA spends money on. We're talking like less than 40 million dollars and 400 people are out performing inspections using that money.

And the FDA has a hard time getting a thousand inspections done in a year from their own internal staff. And you're going to can the state departments that are doing your work for you because you're going to put that money into raises for people who aren't really doing any, the FDA does a lot of stuff, but the mandate from the government is you need to go out and inspect plants.

And they're not, they're doing like everything else, but that in terms of what they do, they do, but like, It's minuscule compared to what they're supposed to do. Well, boots on the ground doing it and they don't want to pay them.

Francine L Shaw: So the thing is, and the average consumer doesn't know this. They do so few inspections already and we're going to cut the ones that they do.

Matt Regusci: I know what

Francine L Shaw: the hell.

Matt Regusci: We've already got a problem. All right. Well anything else you want to talk about with food safety consortium before we head off this episode?

Francine L Shaw: Steve, so when we were talking to him, he has all those multi colored gloves there, right? Oh,

Matt Regusci: you're talking about steve from eagle gloves. Yes.

Francine L Shaw: Yes eagle gloves He has all those different colored gloves there and we were talking to him I love the lime green gloves, by the way I should have stole one of those because they match my brand colors did not he was talking about those gloves and he was like And I once had somebody say to me, and I think I've probably brought this up on the podcast before about the black gloves.

Kitchens love the black gloves because they hide the dirt. Not a good reason to wear the black gloves. Just saying. You want to see the dirt when you're in a kitchen. He was saying that he had a customer that wanted to use those for taking out the trash.

Matt Regusci: Yes.

Francine L Shaw: Perfect reason to have the black gloves. Yay.

That and for cleaning. Anyway, when we were talking to him, I wanted to mention that's a perfect reason for the black gloves, not for necessarily for use in a kitchen. And I didn't get to say that to him. So anyway, I just thought to bring that.

Matt Regusci: Awesome. Yeah. That's really good point.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah.

Matt Regusci: Oh, I, yeah. Don't forget to tune in next week to Steve from Afto's interview.

That was very enlightening and eyeopening. And other than that, don't eat poop. Any poop.