Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast

DEP E76
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Matthew Regusci: Generic listeria tends to be what most facilities will utilize for their environmental testing. They'll test other stuff too, but in terms of pathogen, a lot of times they'll test generic listeria because you could have a facility that's like freezing 32 degrees and you could still find listeria.

Francine L Shaw: So in the last several years, I feel like there's been a considerable number of listeria outbreaks.

We've had ice cream. Yeah, I feel like there's milk, of course, which again, people with the raw milk, we've had yogurt, we've had cheese, um, ice cream. I think there's been deli meat.

intro: Everybody's

And nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points. From the supply chain, to the point of sale. Join industry veterans, Francine L. Shaw and Matt Ragushi for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule. Don't Eat Poop. Don't eat poop.

Francine L Shaw: Hey Matt, how are you today?

Matthew Regusci: Very good, very good. I'm getting excited about the conferences that are coming up.

Francine L Shaw: Yes, I'm very excited. I can't wait.

Matthew Regusci: I know. We have, what's the one that's the FDA one we're going to? What is that called? It is, I hate it when you do this to me.

Francine L Shaw: I'm doing it to myself. You like quiz me and it's, well, sheesh.

Matthew Regusci: Oh, it's the I. E. H. A. F. D. A. Conference that we're doing, and that's gonna be in Chicago. Yes. In fact, timber in September. So, yeah, it's coming up fast.

Francine L Shaw: Yes, I know. I can't wait. I am so excited. That's going to be so much fun. And we're going to have a booth there and we will interview some people while we're there.

And then we have food safety tech, which is coming up in October in Washington, DC. And we are going to do interviews again this year while we're there.

Matthew Regusci: Yes. In fact, we want to actually start scheduling that pretty soon. So if you're listening to this and you are going to Food Safety Consortium slash International Frozen Food Association conference in Washington, D.

C., and you want to be interviewed, let us know because we're going to start scheduling that so it's not just five people lined up again. Five people deep. Black people blind up. Yes.

Francine L Shaw: Yes. Because we had so many people to interview and it was like we were stressing because the interviews were so good and there were so many people we wanted to talk to and they were waiting to talk to us that it took us.

We felt anyway, like a little while to do those interviews. And we had a really good time. It was a lot of fun looking forward to doing that again this year as well.

Matthew Regusci: 100%. Okay. So you have an outbreak for us to discuss, right?

Francine L Shaw: I do. So in Canada, Silk is being recalled. Silk and great value brand plant based beverages in Canada.

It says it's being recalled because of Listeria. So we aren't in Canada, but we do have Canadian folks who listen to our podcast. Every week, there's a recall. I guess that's good and bad, but they're catching it and doing the recalls bad that there are so many, it seems, but there's, it's a variety of different types of still.

Products here that almond dark chocolate almond original. Almond and coconut almond vanilla. I drink the almond vanilla a lot. So, several different varieties of bill in Canada. Recalled. So you're in Canada and you are and that stuff has quite a shelf life by the time we're recording a little bit ahead.

But even by the time this is aired, it would be a possibility that they could still have that in their refrigerators or God forbid somebody that isn't getting a notification or something should still have this in their dairy case. Or the refrigerated non dairy, but still on their shelf selling it, which would be a shame.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah, which is crazy because you're, and it's, you were right that bees have a very long shelf life. And Listeria has a potentially long incubation period within the body. So who knows how many other people are going to get sick from this because this got linked to this facility in Canada. It's the known Canada facility.

So it's not a US facility. It's a Canadian outbreak in silk milk from a Canadian facility. There could be a bunch more illnesses popping up later on. They're going to be linked to this that we don't even know about yet, which is great.

Francine L Shaw: Well, like you said, you may not get sick right away. It's like three to 70 days.

Yeah, for listeria to show up, which is A really long time. So like you said, we've talked before about the trace back, how long it takes for these to show up. And then who knows what you ate 70 days ago. I don't even know where I was 70 days ago, let alone what I ate 70 days ago. And when I was traveling all the time, I had receipts that showed what I ate 70 days ago.

I have a clue what I ate two months ago,

Matthew Regusci: but that was only what you were saving for your business's expenses, but what you had at home. Yeah. But yeah, it's crazy. So this, it must be just this Listeria must be everywhere in the facility because it's hitting every line unless they're running almond milk, coconut milk, and almond and cashew milk all on the same line.

That could be it, right? But I'm assuming because it's silk and they have just so much product, I'm assuming there's multiple lines. Don't know that for sure, but if that's the case, it's completely through the whole entire facility, this Listeria. So then one of the questions I have is where was their environmental testing program?

Listeria is something you test in zones. Well, it depends on your program, but most of the time people are testing Listeria in like zone two. And why didn't they find this? Why was this across the facility or at least across the line? And they're just people to get sick for them to find it. I'm very confused about that.

Francine L Shaw: So it appears it's almost every product they have.

Matthew Regusci: Yes, it appears like this is completely through the facility.

Francine L Shaw: So I was thinking the same thing as I was reading that. It's like you said, the entire facility. It has to be multiple lines. It has to be.

Matthew Regusci: Right. It's impacting Walmart's line too. So the recall affects Silt's products and Walmart's great value products sold in Canada.

So I don't know if people know this, but most of the time Products that are the, let's say Kirkland product from Costco or Walmart's great value products or Kroger's separate lines of products. Most of them are made within the same companies that have their branded programs. And then right next to it is the store brand program that could be literally the same product from the same line, which is what is happening here with Walmart, right?

Cause Walmart's great value products. Are the silk products made on the silk line? I'm assuming because it's from the same facility, the known Canada's facility. So was Walmart doing their checks? I assume that they had to have had some sort of GFSI audit because yeah, probably BRC. I'm guessing something BRC, SQF, like some GFSI audit like that.

Was there no environmental testing program? Did they not check? I'm really confused on this.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah, I don't know. Something definitely went astray throughout the

Matthew Regusci: process. Yes. Yes.

Francine L Shaw: And they found it because people were getting sick, not because of random testing.

Matthew Regusci: Illnesses led to this, which means there had to have been enough.

And I'm trying to find the data. I haven't seen like how many people got sick that led to this epidemiology. And I don't know how Canada does it too. Like I assume they probably do the same thing. I need that epidemiology program that the US does. Maybe there's a better, they don't need as many. hits, but I don't know.

I doesn't say how many people got sick. The Listeria. Yeah. It doesn't say, did you find it?

Francine L Shaw: It doesn't say in the article that I have how many people got sick.

Matthew Regusci: This is not good though. This is the type of stuff that ruins brands.

Francine L Shaw: Well, in 90 percent of the people that get Listeria are in the high risk groups,

Matthew Regusci: 90 percent

Francine L Shaw: of the people are in high risk.

high risk group such as pregnant adults over 65. So that's scary.

Matthew Regusci: Oh, I found it. I found it from Ontario government resource. There were nine confirmed cases of listerosis as of July 8, 2024. So nine confirmed cases. If the statistics hold true, something like 20 to 30 percent will die. Right? That's not good.

Well, to the people in Canada that got sick to listerosis because of silk milk and who else is going to get sick? Cause we don't know yet. That number is going to climb.

Francine L Shaw: Pregnant women are 10 to 20 percent more likely and the elderly are four times more likely to get listeriosis than the general population.

Matthew Regusci: Is that the five statistics that you were going to talk about at the end of this or no?

Francine L Shaw: Yeah. Pardon. Yes.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah. Okay. So this goes to everybody who's listening that has a facility and you're not testing for listeria because you're afraid you're going to find it. You probably are going to find it. Listeria is like almost everywhere.

You're going to find it. I would rather know I have listeria in my facility and be actively trying to get rid of it. Then all of a sudden having the FDA knocking on my door saying, Hey, nine people were confirmed sick. And the epidemiology is looking to your facility. We're going to do some random testing of your facility and of your product.

And see if it links back to there that would not be the call that I would be like Oh, maybe I should start testing for listeria. I don't know.

Francine L Shaw: Well, I was gonna just say let's talk about human nature There are those people that want to know so they can fix it Address the problem fix the problem and move on with life And then there are those people who don't want to know because they don't want to deal with it I'm of the mindset that I would rather know Address the problem and move on with life because I don't want You A call saying that, hey, somebody got sick and died and have to deal with that.

and have the FDA and everybody else sitting on my doorstep and deal with the ramifications of all those problems. I'd much rather go through what it takes to clean up the problem before it becomes a bigger problem.

Matthew Regusci: 100%. And Okay, so this is Silk. So, they're going to survive this outbreak. Because they're huge, right?

They can absorb the cost of this outbreak. They can absorb the cost of whatever lawsuits are coming. They can do that. Their brand is not, that's not good for their brand, but they'll survive. If this was a different brand, like a newer brand, they'd be over. This would be done. And it would be interesting to see if Silk Maintains her contract from Walmart or if Walmart is like, yeah, eject because if I was Walmart, that's what I would be doing.

I would be on the phone with them right now saying what the heck you are ruining my brand through this process.

Francine L Shaw: It looks like Dan in North America produces. So, so yeah, David's going to survive that.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah. But also this is Dan in Canada. I think this is facility is linked back to a facility in Danicanda.

Yeah. This recall affects silk products in Walmart's great value products sold in Canada. An outbreak of foodborne illness spurred an investigation as possible. This recall could spread to other products made by Dan in Canada. I don't know. Is it a U S facility or a Canadian facility?

Francine L Shaw: Well, it's, it's in Canada.

I would assume it's Canada, but no, there's a parent company or Dan in Canada or whatever. They're a part of a large conglomerate. I'm sorry. So yes, They've got the backing, the money for the marketing and the PR and what it takes to go beyond and what they need to fit, not fix, but to cover all of the resources.

Matthew Regusci: Or Canada, they've been beat up with outbreaks, man. They've been beat out without breaks.

Probably because some of the outbreaks that they've hit have become from American companies.

Francine L Shaw: It's not a good place to be.

Matthew Regusci: Oh my God.

Francine L Shaw: Not when we're talking about this. Let's be realistic.

Matthew Regusci: Okay. So what are the five facts about listeria?

Francine L Shaw: So five things that you didn't know, but need to know about listeria. 90 percent of people who get listeriosis are part of the high risk groups, such as pregnant women, adults over 65 and people with weakened immune systems, which I mentioned.

In fact, pregnant women are about 10 to 20 times more likely, depending on the source, more likely to get listeriosis Then the general population 10 to 20 times more likely if you're pregnant and typically It ends in a spontaneous abortion of the fetus if that happened case of the year and about 20 Die, that's huge when you think about it.

Matthew Regusci: It's the highest percentage Mortality rate of a foodborne pathogen. I believe botulism is up there too, but that's a toxin. We look at just the just like listeria versus salmonella versus E. coli versus norovirus, but if you get it's harder to get listerosis than to get sick with those other viruses or bacterias, it's harder to get listerosis.

But once you do, man, that mortality rate is not good.

Francine L Shaw: So consider this. There's about 19, 000 salmonella cases every year and only 300 and I use the term only only 380 people die. That's 2%.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah,

Francine L Shaw: so, yeah, perspective. Listeria, unlike many other foodborne pathogens, because it can grow even in the cold temperature of the refrigerator, making it extra important to avoid.

Or other hybrid foods, like other foodborne pathogens, proper cooking is the most efficient way to kill listeria that is lurking food,

Matthew Regusci: which is why listeria was in like Bluebell, which is why listeria tends to be generic. Listeria tends to be what most facilities will. utilize for their environmental testing.

They'll test other stuff too. But in terms of pathogen, a lot of times they'll test generic listeria because you could have a facility that's like freezing 32 degrees and you could still find listeria.

Francine L Shaw: So in the last several years, I feel like there's been a considerable number of listeria outbreaks.

We've had ice cream, I feel like there's milk, of course, which again, people with the raw milk, we've had yogurt. We've had cheese, ice cream. I think there's been deli meat,

Matthew Regusci: deli meat, deli meats, uh, huge. There's, For the longest time, the FDA has told pregnant women not to eat like raw hot dogs and that type of stuff because of listeria.

Francine L Shaw: The incubation period is incredibly long. It's 3 to 70 days. That means it could take up to 70 days after you have ingested listeria for you to show any symptoms at all.

Matthew Regusci: Which means anybody who's drank this silk milk in Canada, Then you should be able to look out to see if you start getting sick and go directly to the doctor as fast as possible to get samples.

Francine L Shaw: You don't want to wait this out and see if you get more sick because by the time you get sicker, it could be too late.

Matthew Regusci: You could be dying and or lose your baby if you're pregnant because of this. It's not good. Yeah. And that's the scary part. It's literally, you could get symptoms 60 days later, 70 days later.

Oh my gosh. It's so crazy.

Francine L Shaw: The U. S. food system takes Listeria extremely seriously, and there's an enhanced surveillance team led by the CDC called the Listeria Initiative, which requires healthcare providers to report listeriosis cases. Requires public health officials to promptly interview anyone with listeriosis to gather information.

It could help identify the source of infection. It requires clinical labs to send positive samples to public health laboratories for subtyping. So, I read an article the other day that I remember where I read it that it was talking about. I mentioned raw milk a few minutes ago. And most people just truly don't understand the risk associated with raw milk, that there isn't any risk at all associated with raw milk.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah. And there's also a big group of people that know that there's a potential risk for raw milk and don't care or think it's blown out of proportion.

Francine L Shaw: If you're aware of the risk and you choose to take that risk. If you're educated about it and choose to take it, that's one thing you're making that decision for yourself.

That's if you're at home and you drop a piece of meat in the floor and you choose to eat it, that's fine. I don't care. Whatever. If you're in a restaurant and you drop that piece of meat in the floor and you choose to cook it, that's something entirely different,

Matthew Regusci: right?

Francine L Shaw: You don't have the right to make that decision for somebody else.

Matthew Regusci: It would be interesting to see if I chose a different route and wasn't in food safety. And I decided to stay in dairy, like my family and just decided to stay in dairy. And I decided to have some free range dairy cows and sell organic milk, raw milk, which I could see myself doing totally. Most of the time my thoughts are like when the government says something, most of the time it's not true.

I don't know. I'm just like the guy who looks at everything as like, okay, whatever. Most things are just propaganda. But if I was the one selling this milk, I'd make everyone sign a waiver. Like I'd be like, no, I don't want to have any risk of this. Like I would study and see what are the risks of raw milk.

And I would be like, okay, I'd list it all on a waiver. And I tell all my clients. Here are the potential things that could happen to you because you're drinking raw milk. Cover my own, like CUIA.

Francine L Shaw: How does raw milk get from the cow to the container? Trucks?

Matthew Regusci: No, from the cow to the container, raw milk. If I'm selling my own raw milk, what do you mean?

Not you.

Francine L Shaw: Reality. How does raw milk get from the cow to the refrigerator and the grocery store? It's not pasteurized. So it's already got the bacteria and

Matthew Regusci: it depends on the size of the operation. But if you're out right now, dairy or Gary's worked when I was helping my grandfather in dairy consulting, cows are lined up, they're milked via a machine.

The machine goes directly to a tank. That tank then gets picked up by the processor, the milk processor. They come by every couple of days. In a big milk truck, they pick it up and they send it to the processor. The processor processes. If I'm selling my own milk, then it would go into that tank. And then from there, put into containers and sent out, right?

Cause there's no, if there's no past duration, that's happening. If it's just raw milk, then it's going from tank into container. I assume that's how that's happening. I don't know for sure. I've never been a raw milk guy. I've drank raw milk, but it was like raw milk as a kid from, or dare you, whatever, but I haven't had seen an operation, raw milk operation.

Francine L Shaw: Are they bottling it at the farm?

Matthew Regusci: If you're buying raw milk from the farmer? Yeah. They're bottling it at the farm. I don't know of any grocery stores that are selling raw milk. Are there grocery stores selling raw milk? You could buy raw milk at a grocery store near you? Golly, man. That is such. Who knows on that grocery store to be selling that raw milk.

That's a ticking time bomb. I get it. If you're the consumer, you're buying directly to the farmer, whatever you're putting it in your own hands, but there are consumers going directly to the grocery store and buying raw milk.

Francine L Shaw: It's a market.

Matthew Regusci: Oh my gosh.

Francine L Shaw: No kidding. I'm like, how does that get here? I'm not going to answer the questions here, but.

Matthew Regusci: So what I would say to you, Francine, is to be continued, please go take a picture at your grocery store. When I say, when we say grocery store, are we talking about like Kroger or is this like some little mom and pop grocery store?

Francine L Shaw: It's a family owned market, but they sell groceries, yes.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah, I know, but there's a big difference between Kroger or Walmart.

Francine L Shaw: It's not like a national chain

Matthew Regusci: for God's sake. I have to ask my brother. My brother is a grocer and he works for like a family owned grocery chain that has three or. five now grocery stores and he's like an executive for them. I didn't ask him if he gets people trying to sell

Francine L Shaw: milk yet here. If that's a legitimate question,

Matthew Regusci: you live in the middle of nowhere, Pennsylvania.

So it could be the farmer a mile down from you that's selling directly to that mom and pop grocery store. Yeah. That could be it. If it's legal to do such in Pennsylvania, you could literally be driving down the road, Francine, and see the dairy. Who knows?

Francine L Shaw: There are some, no, I'm not, I know. I

Matthew Regusci: know I'm

Francine L Shaw: not.

Matthew Regusci: You need to take a picture of that brand so that we can research it. That's a very good question. I don't know.

Francine L Shaw: Cause I know that there's definitely some other question. It's a very nice. little market. And I know that they're trying to do things above board. I don't, it's a situation where I don't think they're realized that some of the stuff they're doing, they shouldn't be doing.

Matthew Regusci: Well, they could do it. Do they understand the risk of it though? Because if they're selling that milk, it's not that I'm talking about.

Francine L Shaw: We're allowed to buy wrong. That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about some other things, but yeah, no, we're allowed to buy raw milk right now.

Matthew Regusci: You maybe you should just go see if see if they want some consulting for some free script

Francine L Shaw: script.

It's on my list. Yeah,

Matthew Regusci: I don't know if this was something that was around on the East Coast, but in California, when I was a kid, you could buy like script for your grocery store. You bought it at church and it was like a fundraiser. You would pay like 20 bucks for a 20 bucks script. And then the church got 5 percent of it or something like that.

Nope. No. Okay.

Guess it was just some local thing for, but I remember because we were poor, like constituents, parishioners at our Catholic church would actually buy scripts for us and hand us script. So we had like coupons for the grocery store. So maybe you can consult with your little grocery store nearby and they can give you quote unquote script or my grandpa would do consulting for jerry companies and they if they couldn't pay him cash they give him like half a cow

Francine L Shaw: i was just gonna say you do something and you might get half a hog or beef or yeah

Matthew Regusci: my grandfather in law Was a pastor in Butler, Pennsylvania, um, given the whole entire thing that just happened in Butler, Pennsylvania.

It's fascinating. They would pound the pastor and he had a freezer. I think they had freezers, but yeah, freezer. And they would come and they would give. The pastor, a bunch of produce, meat, that type of stuff, because they couldn't really pay to tithe. So they would pound the pastor, give him pounds of stuff.

Yeah. Oh, the good old days

where you just drank raw milk and you didn't worry about it. Oh, I got sick. Whoops. Yeah. Was there any more data on Listeria that you wanted to? No, that

Francine L Shaw: was everything that I have, Mr. Matthew.

Matthew Regusci: There you go. To be continued on this silk thing, I wonder, I'm sure more people are going to get sick. Nine confirmed cases as of now, but more are going to be linked to this.

Francine L Shaw: I would, yeah, I would imagine so. Aye. Well, on that note,

Matthew Regusci: don't eat poop.