Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast

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Matthew Regusci: So because of that, it's like hard because you have a booth and then you're trying to talk to a bunch of sales people and buyers about food safety and their eyes glaze over. And they're like, oh yeah, we have somebody who does that. And you're like, no, dude, you're Yum Brands. You have a team of about a hundred people that do that.

intro: Everybody's gotta eat. And nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points from the supply chain to the point of sale, joined industry veterans, Francine L Shaw and Matt Ragusi for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule.

Don't eat poop. Don't eat poop.

Matthew Regusci: Hello, hello, Francine.

Francine L Shaw: Hey Matt, it's been a while.

Matthew Regusci: It has been a while. You have been quite the road warrior recently.

Francine L Shaw: I have been. Just back and forth to Chicago. It'd be exciting to be traveling to different cities. Like Chicago though.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah, Chicago for conferences is awesome.

I think living in certain parts of Chicago is like living in a war zone, but like where it is, you look at the murder rate of Chicago. It's like crazy, but like where conferences are, it's like, super nice. I go to Chicago and I actually take the public transportation when I go to Chicago, like, I'll go from the airport and I'll take them whatever they call it, the metro or whatever.

My wife thinks I'm insane. Seriously, have you just given up on life and you just hope you get shot in Chicago? It's actually really easy to use the public transportation here.

Francine L Shaw: Looking at the prices, public transportation versus Super expensive. Now it is, but I was weighing the odds and not knowing exactly where I was going.

And I'm like, now I have taken public transportation in both D. C. in New York City. I did not in Chicago. I used Uber, but I just could not. Get over the cost of Uber right now, and it makes sense everything else inflation, but it was insane. Insane.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah,

Francine L Shaw: the cost of Uber right now.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah, and that's why I took the public transportation like from the airport to where the conference was last time I was there because it was like an Uber was going to be like 80 bucks.

I'm renting a car anywhere. First off, renting a car in Chicago. I did that one time and then hated my life the whole entire time. So I've never rented a car in a major city again after trying to do that, but the public transportation was like 10 bucks. I was like, okay, done. I'm just buying that.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah, it's been years since I've rented a car, but there's a difference between you writing public transportation and me writing transportation.

Matthew Regusci: Some a little bigger, less attractive. I totally agree.

Francine L Shaw: Not exactly what I meant. You're male. I'm female. You are a little bigger than I am. I'm five feet tall, 115 pounds. Easy to kidnap.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah, growing up. In gang territory taught me how to walk worth like the don't F with me type of a look.

Francine L Shaw: I got that. I think I have that natural look of just don't bother.

Matthew Regusci: So, but you went to a couple conferences. What were the conferences again?

Francine L Shaw: I went first was the food safety summit and then the National Restaurant Association show. It's much easier to say the NRA show. But then people aren't sure whether it's the NRA show or the NRA show, but yeah, the national show, which is huge.

Thousands of people from all over the world attend that show. Now there are people from around the world that attended food safety summit. As well, but it's a little more intimate, different types of people attend each show.

Matthew Regusci: Yes. And a significant difference in size as well.

Francine L Shaw: The demographic is very different for each of those shows.

One is more educational, more executive level. And the other one is attended by restaurant owners and that demographic. So very different.

Matthew Regusci: The NRA show is A lot of fun. I think the food safety summit is a lot of fun. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to go this year. This is the first time in a long time I haven't gone, but the NRA show is really fun just because of just learning all the new different ingredients that are out there, all the new different products that are coming out and the samples are absolutely amazing.

Francine L Shaw: So yes, the NRA show, anything that you want for a restaurant, anything that you want for a is there. Small wares, silverware. Dishes, fine dining, fast food, labeling, anything that you can imagine that you would want for any type of restaurant or bar is there. Samples, alcohol samples, non alcoholic samples, food, beverage, coffee, every type of coffee that you can possibly imagine.

Coca Cola was there. Do you know what wasn't there? And this boggles my mind. And this is a testament to why we have food safety cultures in the industry. There were very few, maybe one or two training companies. And when I say training, I don't mean training products. It's help national restaurant association.

So not talking about products, I'm talking about people that actually do the training. There weren't very many companies that actually do training there.

Matthew Regusci: So just to make sure that I and everybody else understands, you're saying because NRA. Owns serve safe. The training packages, the products were there, but the companies that would actually perform the trainings like savvy food safety used to do.

Now you provide the product to a lot of trainers. Those training organizations weren't there. Serve safe was represented because NRA National Restaurant Association own serve safe. But the service were not there. That's what you're trying to say.

Francine L Shaw: Not that I saw the service providers. Yeah, not that I saw.

Also, Ecolab was there. But what, when it comes to sanitation products? Other than that, there weren't many sanitation companies there.

Matthew Regusci: And it would make sense because Ecolab also has a restaurant auditing product to go along with their chemicals.

Francine L Shaw: Now there were auditing, like NSF was there, there were a few auditing companies there, a lot of auditing software products were there.

But if there's anything that we need in the food service industry, it's training and sanitation. Let's think about that and those services and products we're missing.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah. And I think we can talk about that too, like after we talked about your experience at food safety summit, but it's also the audience, right?

So when I was, I'm having to do this now. With clean label project and lips analytics is really go through with the team and figure out what conferences to go to, what conferences not to, and have always done this with every company I've run and. NRA is one of those where we would send people to the National Restaurant Association is where we would send people to, but where we wouldn't really have a booth.

And the reason why is because the audience is not correct. I think that's what we're going to talk about at the end of the show is some of the interesting things that you saw at the Restaurant Association. So because of that, it's like hard because you have a booth and then you're trying to talk to a bunch of sales people and buyers.

About food safety and their eyes glaze over and they're like, Oh yeah, we have somebody who does that. And you're like, no dude, you're yum brands. You have a team of about a hundred people that do that. But even some of the really big companies or don't even have anybody in food safety at this because the national restaurant association also has smaller conferences.

That are specifically dedicated and workshop type stuff that are dedicated towards the food safety group. So, it's really hard and I totally get it, which self product.

Francine L Shaw: Yes, they sell product train. So, this is a conversation that needs to be had because many trainers don't know how to train.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah,

Francine L Shaw: or they don't bring the information.

Correct. It's just a problem across the board.

Matthew Regusci: Yeah, 100%. So, I think let's put a pit in National Restaurant Association because I know you have some. Interesting things you want to talk about at the end and let's hear about your amazing experience at Food Safety Summit. I know it was amazing because you were texting me like a little school girl the whole entire time during Food Safety Summit about how much fun you were having and then also about how much I was missing and how how dumb I am that I didn't come, you know, that type of stuff too.

I

Francine L Shaw: never used the

word dumb. Oh, that's true. I just interpreted it as that. Well, you didn't disagree with my premise. You just disagree with my statement.

Francine L Shaw: So first of all, the people in charge of the actual individuals that put together the Food Safety Summit this year did a phenomenal job. So they really did a great job with one of the key topics this year was food safety culture.

The

people who put on Food Safety Summit I believe it's the food safety magazine and also the podcast food safety matters, right?

Francine L Shaw: Yeah,

they do put together a great product

Francine L Shaw: and this year when I've gone to that like you for a number of years and this year, I believe the statistic was 60 percent of the attendees had never been there before.

And I think maybe that was. What made it impactful as far as the attendees that were there because excitement to be there. It's the first time that they've attended it. So they're probably new to their positions. The topics were great topics. Don't ask me right now, other than food safety culture, what they were, because you know how my memory is, but that's such a key topic and something that It needs to be talked about in from different aspects from different people and women in food safety were there.

That was a great session. I attended that. Betsy Craig was the moderator for that. The people that we know that people are listening to our podcast. We know that because we see the numbers, not everybody that listens downloads. So it's tough to judge. From the downloads, how many people are listening, but to be there and have people talk to me about the podcast that are actually listening to the podcast.

That was the part that I'm sorry you were missing as much as anything, because it's phenomenal to really know just the number of people that we are reaching through this podcast is phenomenal. And that is very exciting. That was very exciting. To hear and to recognize and to talk to all of those people.

That was really cool when you were texting me about like all the people that were coming up and talking to you about our podcast. On the food safety culture side though, what things popped up that were like ahas for you within the sessions about food safety culture?

Francine L Shaw: Oh my god, I've been to so many conferences right now.

I think that no matter if it's so much what I learned, I think it's the fact that they're spending the time talking about it in a manner that everybody that is in the industry is getting to hear it and recognize the importance of it. New people that are entering the industry, people that are in the industry that don't necessarily hear about it every day.

We talk about this all the time. I write articles about this all the time. So. I don't know if it's necessarily what I heard about it or picked up from any of the sessions that I attended and I did attend a lot of sessions. It's the fact that it's being talked about. To the audience that are attending that may not otherwise.

I get

it. It's kind of like looking at, um, you look at it in two different scopes is what I'm thinking of is like when I have a team and I'm training them, I get to go out and experience a conference with them and I get to see it through their eyes. Like that information isn't new for me, but to see how excited that they get from receiving that information and how motivated they are and how more they understand their role provides excitement to me, right?

Cause I'm like, Oh, good. They're grabbing it. They're grasping it. It is same with parenting, right? I have a little baby right now, 15 months old foster baby, and she's learning how to walk. You and I walk. All the time, but she takes one step and it's like, yay. And you're just like there in the moment, excited for them in their first steps.

And it's analogous to this. It's maybe you didn't learn much in these cause they're pretty broad conversations at food safety summit. They're not really getting into the weeds much. Some of the conferences or breakout sessions do, but I can get what you're saying. It was more looking at it and going, Oh my gosh, so many people are grossed in this.

And it's going to provide them motivation, excitement to actually implement these practices of food safety culture into their facilities and minimize the risk of food safety overall.

Francine L Shaw: Well, and we forget that while this information, like you just said, isn't new to us. For some of the individuals that are there, it is very new to them.

It's like said with your foster baby in the walking, we walk every day. We might talk about different aspects of food safety culture every day. But to some people, this is very new information and they've never heard it before. So whether we're talking about how to use a bimetallic thermometer properly, and somebody's never been taught that, I've done it a million times.

And they're like, oh, wow, I didn't know. That's how you did that. Whereas we see it as everybody knows that. Well, not everybody does.

So, you know, I'm going through that right now with my new role as running ellipse analytics. I've always been in organics, food, safety, sustainability, animal welfare. But never in the side of industrial chemicals and metals, right?

Heavy metal stuff. And to really see how ubiquitous heavy metals are and chemicals are in food has been really an eye opening shock to me over the last two months. And being in food safety for 20 years, I didn't think that was possible. I didn't think it was possible for me to go, wait, what is going on?

Shoot. We need to be testing this a lot more. And so I'm in that same stage right now, just understanding that world. So. I could totally appreciate and understand the people coming into food safety for their first time going to this food safety summit conference, learning about food safety culture and just being, wait, there's more than just the checklist and the environmental testing and the quality inspections.

Like we can create a whole culture around this. That's awesome.

Francine L Shaw: So I think one of the sessions that I sat in on that like really impacted me was Melody Gee started this Women in Food Safety LinkedIn group. Well, it's more than a LinkedIn group. It's a group a while back and it has really grown. That was a full house, that room, which was, I was very impressed and I really need to be more active in that group.

But there was a breakout session, and I really wish they'd given that group a little bit longer than what they had. But the group, I was in some of the things that they were saying. And I just listened because some of these people in the group, they were younger than I am. And so they're just experiencing things in their realm of work and what they're doing as I'm sitting there listening to them.

At 1. I said, that still happens things that women are experiencing in the work sector. And I was just shocked these kinds of things, because I've been self employed for years now. So I don't have to deal with a lot of. Things that people that are working for corporations would fortunately, most of the men that I work with 95 percent of the men that I work with, probably 99 percent are very respectful.

And many times that in a meeting, or in even these seminars, the majority of them are men. Oftentimes I'm the only woman in a meeting because at the level I work at most of the people are male. And again, all very respectful. Men that I work with. So I was taken aback by some of the things that a couple of these women said happened in the workplace and I was just shocked.

For example, if they're going on a trip or something, they're expected to make all the travel arrangements or they're expected to go get breakfast or go get the coffee because they're like the women in the group. Not that there's a problem. With doing that, if they're taking turns to do that, don't expect me to do that because I'm the only female that's here.

I'm not your mom

or your wife. Well, if I were to expect you to do all the travel arrangements, we would never go anywhere. So my

Francine L Shaw: God, right now it's cracking up.

Uh,

Francine L Shaw: Oh my God.

So growing up where I did in California, like the racism thing wasn't really an issue either. So I didn't really understand racism until later on in life when I was talking to people who have really gone through racism.

And then I had some things happen to me pretty young in my life where I learned that sexual harassment is a lot of times it's about power. And I find that is just absolutely disgusting to me. It's just really, it's disgusting to me. And people who, who, Are like that. I'm actually, I'm 100 percent disgusted by as well.

So luckily that has never ever been an issue with me. Like mind you, you and I both know I have other vices, none like that. And I think that's really helped. I know that's helped me in my career because I joke I'm one woman's lover and every other woman's brother, you know, like every other woman I've ever worked with, like I'm their brother.

Yeah. Francine says that all the time and it makes it so much easier to be able to have relationships and also for my wife to be able to trust, because I have great relationships with women that I work with and I've had relationships with women Like you for a very long time, but some for 20 years. And they're probably listening going, yep, 100%.

And they've come to my house and they know my wife. And it's just, I find it sad. First off that still exists. And I, but it's a power thing. So I don't think that'll ever not exist, but I also find it really sad that men act like that. Cause it really does hinder, particularly now, maybe not in the past, but particularly now it totally hinders their ability to achieve anything in the workplace for a long period of time, maybe short period of time, but for a long period of time, you can't go through a.

Work at a high level and lose half the population because you're a predator. It's just, I don't understand it. It's disgusting.

Francine L Shaw: Well, and just that meaning in general, I always say to people, and anytime this topic comes up, if you're sitting at a table and these topics come up and whether it's bigotry or any type of racial conversation or jokes, and you're sitting there listening to those and you don't say anything, Your every bit is bad is the people that are making those comments if you use to sit and listen to people have those conversations and not say anything or get up and walk.

I will say something. If it continues, I'll just get up and walk away. So I don't want to be a part of it. I just don't.

I totally agree.

Francine L Shaw: That went way down a rabbit hole.

Unfortunately, it's still prevalent. It's still there. I don't think it's huge. I think people are definitely more cognizant of it now than they used to be.

And more so like what you're saying, like other people are just willing to be like, Hey dude, that's not cool, but it still exists.

Francine L Shaw: And I think too, that there's a sense of, if you won't tolerate it. I think there are probably very few men that I interact with, even if I were to casually interact with, that would think that I would be gay.

Be willing to tolerate a comment like that. I think I just give off that vibe.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What I was talking about in the, like when I'm in using public transportation and I'm walking around, I have that don't F with me. Look. Yeah. I, you can turn that on. Francie. So what did you see at the NRA that made you go things that make you go?

Francine L Shaw: Yeah. So now keeping in mind, restaurateurs attend. The vendors are manufacturers, processors, people that are trying to sell their product. So it's funny because you said about you walk around, you sample, I sampled like very little of it just because that's just my,

Speaker 4: yes.

Francine L Shaw: Now this food is not sitting out long.

Most of it isn't sitting out long. So there's that. It doesn't spend a lot of time in the temperature dangers.

Just when she says the food is not sitting out long, you're actually watching them cook the food. Most of the time. Yeah. And when you're going at the heat of this conference, there are definitely days that are faster than days that in days that are slower, but during the heat of the conference, they're having a hard time keeping up with the people who want samples.

So they're generally not sitting out very long.

Francine L Shaw: Right. That's correct. I think I saw less than 10 people with heat lamps, just from a perception standpoint, you would think they would want to have heat lamps. I think I saw very few people with heat lamps. I can honestly say I saw nobody changing their gloves.

Oh, yeah. Now that you say that, I've never seen anybody change gloves either.

Francine L Shaw: I didn't see one thermometer. Not one.

Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: Now, the gentleman I was with got a, it was a frozen patty. They were putting cheese on it and making sandwiches. And we're standing there and we're watching them cook. It was a kid. He's cooking this burger.

And he put the cheese on it, and the cheese didn't melt. And I'm thinking, the cheese isn't melting, that can't possibly be true.

And we're talking like American cheese, right? That like melts at room temperature. I don't

Francine L Shaw: know what kind of cheese it was. All I know is I'm thinking, cheese isn't melting. I wonder if he has a thermometer.

And he pulls it off and he gives it to the guy that I'm with and I walked away and next thing I know he takes a bite and he spins around in a circle and goes back and I turned around to walk back and I end up beside him and the gentleman and the product stand. And I hear him saying that was still frozen in the middle.

Now, was it park or was it completely cooked and frozen? I don't know, but that's a risk if it was park. As opposed to fully cooked, and I don't know,

I like, though, that you walked, you, you, you recognize that there was a potential issue. You walked away, you saw somebody consume that product. Turn around and then you were like, no, I gotta go.

He's drop off.

Francine L Shaw: So should I have said something when I was standing there? Probably, I probably should have. I'm not there to police the place. You know what I mean? I'm not there to police what's happening at the dinner. That's not why I'm there. And this is what the gentleman says. Well, we had just switched positions.

And he had just started cooking and what does that have to do with anything? Nothing. So, then the next day, I

Speaker 4: love this.

Francine L Shaw: I walked past this pizza place. Pizza was sitting on the counter. This gentleman is standing behind the pizza and he's getting ready to put a glove on. The gloves won't come open and it was still early and he's over top of the pizza.

The glove will not come off. He takes the glove and goes end of the glove,

blows into the glove .

Francine L Shaw: And I say, way louder than I should have. I did not just see you do that. Did not just see you do that. And he said, what? And I said, you did not just blow into that glove. And he says, chefs do it all the time.

And I said, you cannot blow into that glove.

And you show him why

Francine L Shaw: standing over top of that pizza and then I realized where I am. I'm not working and I said, I'm being, it hits such a nerve. It's such a nerve. When I saw him do that, I said, look, I said, I am a food safety specialist by trade. His face turned beet red, drained color.

He knew why. As soon as that he knew, I said, you have a good day. Wow. No, I didn't tell him why, because he knew why his reaction said that he knew why.

Yeah. Wow. Well, you ruined his, at least the next 10 minutes.

Francine L Shaw: Ruined that moment for sure.

Yeah, I love, I love, and you and I have heard this a million times, I love the, well, X, Y, Z does it all the time, right?

Like chefs do it all the time, or this has been done forever or whatever. And it's like, yeah, well, that's the reason why we still have people getting hepatitis and norovirus in restaurants. Things need to change, dude.

Francine L Shaw: Dear God, we're at the NRA show, for God's sake, get a grip. You just basically spit over top of all that pizza.

You blew into the glove. What are you thinking? What are you thinking? Was I wrong? No, I was not wrong. I

Speaker 4: did

Francine L Shaw: not wrong. It was very reactionary, but

so I think

Francine L Shaw: as soon as so I walked around with a gentleman most of the day and there were several times as soon as I introduced myself as a food safety specialist.

The reaction from people was really funny. Yes, because we talked about and not my imagination because Morton and I talked about it. It was just like a

do you think it was like a light bulb switched in their head? Oh, shoot now I need to do all this stuff that I don't usually do but I was trained to do Because i'm being watched by someone who knows what i'm supposed to

Francine L Shaw: do When I say everybody almost like an instant paranoia because I said to him a couple times as we were walking away I The tone changed immediately.

It was, yeah.

That's fascinating. And it shouldn't. No, it shouldn't. But I understand, I understand they're in their mode of operation at which they work all the time, right? It's like speed quality is top of their, on top of the mind. And then all of a sudden they see somebody or hear that this is the food safety person.

Now they have to think of one other thing that may not be there on their mode of operation. It may be too, but now that they know that you're watching, they may be like, Oh, we

Francine L Shaw: don't have any sanitizer here. We can't wash our hands here. I haven't showed my

I have to take more time to open up the gloves and not blow into them.

Darn it.

Francine L Shaw: The rules don't change. You can still spread bacteria while you're at a trade show.

Yeah. Yeah. In fact, you can get more people sick faster

Francine L Shaw: because all of those people that are coming through there, there was something, some kind of bacteria went through there with thousands of people. Oh yeah.

And viruses.

Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah, exactly. Pathogens viruses, something

you get that many people in the room. It's, it's like a chicken hothouse, right? Just chickens that way. But yes, let's have conferences at least twice a month where we force human beings to live in the same conditions as chickens

Francine L Shaw: saying anybody's going to get sick.

That's not what I'm saying. The opportunity is there.

Yeah,

Francine L Shaw: I

think that was very good updates, Francine. And speaking of conferences, you also found out for sure from Rick. That we are set for food safety consortium, which we were curious about, given the fact that food safety consortium combined with what is the international frozen food conference or something like that.

Francine L Shaw: National frozen food association.

So, yeah,

Francine L Shaw: combined, he did tell me that. Yes, we would be at the food safety consortium in DC. So we need to schedule a meeting with Rick.

Yeah, we need to schedule a meeting with Rick. And by the way, Rick is the guy who like owns the conference. And owns food safety tech.

Yeah. So we're on, so we're going to be interviewing again. So people come to food safety consortium, international frozen food association in DC, this is going to be a lot of fun. And, and seen, and I are looking to actually schedule. I think interviews this year, as opposed to having a free for all literally, we thought we would interview maybe five people last year and we have, we're still going through that

Francine L Shaw: and we're still not only that, but I spoke to a lot of people at the summit.

We're interested in being interviewed. We need to get on that. Let's talk to some of those people. Maybe we should just interview people,

like, other than the conference.

Francine L Shaw: No, we need to do that. Yes. As opposed to just you and I chatting.

Yeah, that's a good idea.

Speaker 4: The look on your face and the tone of your voice, they're saying, what are you talking about?

I

try to be on the same wavelength with you most of the time, but just to give everybody a An understanding of people who have we've interviewed what their response is. David Hatch, which that showed just launched recently. I don't want to give a week because I don't know when this podcast is going to launch.

He's from Neogen and he messaged Francine and I and he was like, thanks so much for having me on the podcast. I finally have something I can share with my friends and family who asked. What do you do for work? How many people out there that are listening to the show have such a hard time explaining to to family and friends what they do?

I know I did for years. In fact, it wasn't until we started this podcast, FRA team that my wife and and family were like. Oh, now I understand what you do like 20 years later, guys, like, you know, I'm paying you for your college with what I do and you don't understand, you know, yeah, so I wrote back. I totally understand and he's like, but seriously, I think we covered a lot together and the fun conversational style is so accessible when talking about such serious and complex ideas.

And so that's what we've gotten multiple times from different people that we've interviewed. Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: So two things, my family still doesn't have any idea what I do.

Doesn't help that you and I keep, we've gotten to a different part of our career where we're helping a lot of people in a lot of different ways in a lot of different aspects of the marketplace.

And so then it's, it just gets to be a lot easier to just be like food safety. We keep people from getting sick.

Francine L Shaw: And another thing is Darren Deltwiler. I hope you get I don't think he's gonna mind me saying this and I were talking and he was talking about something he was going to do a lot of his

Speaker 4: children said qualified to do that.

Not just that.

Yeah. He's not only qualified to do this, but I also have a doctorate and I teach students whatever he wants to do.

Francine L Shaw: I mean, so funny because sometimes our family's perception of us is like we're mom. And we're dad.

Speaker 4: Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: Which is good. But yeah, it was just like, it's all over the world.

Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: Regularly.

Yeah. He speaks all over the world, but he speaks on behalf of consumers all over the world. Two major manufacturers, major restaurants have him, vice presidents of food safety listen to what he says. You

Francine L Shaw: know, at the university, I'm just cracking up because I'm like, okay, so I'm really happy.

We're in good company.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah, our

kids don't know what we're doing.

Francine L Shaw: Oftentimes, not the extent of it.

Yeah. So,

Francine L Shaw: okay.

All right. Well, I think we did this. We did. We did. Francine, don't eat poop.