Don't Eat Poop! A Food Safety Podcast

DEP E101
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Jaclyn Bowen: Francine, when it comes to a heavy metal test, let me tell you how heavy metal testing works, okay? We're going to get into the details, but it's going to be sound really interesting and fascinating. There's this instrumentation, it's called an ICP MS, intracoupled plasma mass spectrometry, okay? And what it does is the way this instrument works, they're about $350,000, okay?

What this instrument does is you get a sample, you prep the sample, it heats the sample up to literally the temperature of the surface of the sun, boils off everything else except for the fundamental kind of like the elements, those heavy metals that exist. Okay.

So, a heavy metal test, I'm going to quantify it down to parts per billion for you, parts per billion for you, Francine.

And at that part per billion level, what I'm going to do a single digit parts per billion, which that's equivalent to, going off the top of my head here, it's something of a drop of water in Olympic size swimming pool. How much do you think that test costs to do? And I'm gonna do it for arsenic, cadmium, lead, and mercury.

How much do you think that test costs? Oh my god, I have no idea, but it's gotta be expensive. Doesn't it? Sounds very expensive. $125, Francine. Really? You can have that answer, but for whatever reason little Clean Label Project, the non profit, is responsible for giving this to the global monoliths, multi billion dollars, or spend the $125? And get it done yourself.

intro: Everybody's got to eat and nobody likes getting sick. That's why heroes toil in the shadows, keeping your food safe at all points from the supply chain to the point of sale. Join industry veterans Francine L. Shaw and Matt Ragushi for a deep dive into food safety. It all boils down to one golden rule.

Don't eat poop. Don't eat poop.

Matt Regusci: Hello, hello, Francine. Good morning, Matt. And hello, hello, Jackie. How are you? Good. Good. All right. So we have a very, very exciting guest today. Someone who I really like and have known for a very, very long time and currently work together with in some fashion. We have Jackie Bowen from Clean Label Project.

Yeah. So Jackie, tell us about yourself.

Jaclyn Bowen: Oh, Matt, where do I start? Let's see. So, by training professionally as it relates to don't eat poop, tell people I'm a food safety and systems engineer, which makes me a professional buzzkill at dinner parties. So, chances are, if you need to be talked out of eating or drink anything, I am your girl.

So, if you want to know where the bodies are buried and where all the gnarly stuff is, I know. The thing is, I tell people that, of like what I do, and then they're like, actually, I think what you talk about is pretty riveting. I would love to have you at a dinner party. But I'm also the executive director of Clean Label Project.

So, it's a national nonprofit with the mission to bring truth and transparency to food and consumer product labeling. I've held a variety of roles within technical as well as executive leadership in a variety of different food capacities, serving as the Director of QAI, the largest domestic organic certification agent, holding a variety of roles within NSF international, which is a world health organization collaborating center, but by all means the most important job I've ever held is that of a mom of my three year old son.

Matt Regusci: Yes, which is awesome. And then, which kind of is going into what we're going to talk about today.

There's a lot of stuff happening in the world of heavy metals in baby food with the new rule from California, you know, transparency rule for AB 899.

The FDA just came out with some limits for baby food and, and puree and snacks and all that stuff. And Clean Label Project just launched a white paper on the protein powders for heavy metals as well. So, I mean, heavy metals has kind of been top of the... I think, top of a lot of moms and dad's minds just recently with the Wana Bana thing with cinnamon, but you've been at this for what, eight years now?

Jaclyn Bowen: Eight years now.

Yep. You're absolutely right. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. And the thing is, when it comes to heavy metals, parents have a right to be concerned about this stuff and the first thousand days of life are critically important to long term health and wellness. It's that period of optimum brain and immune system development.

So, it's a matter of making sure that our kids get more of that good stuff and less of the bad stuff. I remember it's probably been five or six years now, I remember saying it was talking to basically trade pub and I'm like, food toxicology is the next frontier of food safety. It's coming. And it's here.

Francine L Shaw: So, let me ask the question, what got you interested in this? Why did you start?

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah, thanks.

Matt Regusci: That's a great question.

Jaclyn Bowen: Great question.

So, I worked in food safety for a really long time at, at NSF. So, for the most part, when we think about food safety in America, for the most part, we start talking about microbial and pathogen contaminants, right?

Things like E. coli, Salmonella, Listeria, and how it's linked to vomiting, diarrhea or worse within 24 to 72 hours. But the thing is, it's really interesting because when you watch mainstream media, right, you pay attention to any of your social media feeds. You'll see headlines like levels of heavy metals in top selling baby foods, levels of glyphosate, which is the active ingredient in Roundup with no links to Non-Hodgkin's lymphoma.

I know I've seen a ton of different legal posts as it relates to that. Headlines around BPA, BPS, or Phthalates leaching from product packaging into finished products and with their known links to endocrine disruption and fertility. But here's the problem is that these products are still compliant in the court of law, but in the court of public opinion, it's a different story.

So, along those lines, my interest lies in the fact that compliance with federal law, that's table stakes. It's the minimum you need to do in order to legally sell product. But let's be honest, are we really going to congratulate a brand for not necessitating a recall?

So, that's where Clean Label Project comes in. What is it that consumers want? What do moms want? What are we looking for? And just because something hasn't been promulgated into rulemaking, just because an act of Congress hasn't happened, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to minimize our exposure. And that's what Clean Label Project is about, is more of the good stuff, less of the bad stuff for your family as well as mine.

Matt Regusci: So, people talk about, you know, since I've been... so, Ellipse Analytics, the company I'm the CEO for, is the certification body and the testing arm for Clean Label Projects. We're the mad scientists and Jackie is the advocate and the one who keeps the mad scientists in line. So, it's really fun working with you on this because I didn't realize how ubiquitous heavy metals were in food, how bad it really was.

We, I mean, obviously there's a lot of other stuff that gets tested in this too, for Clean Label Project like pesticides and glyphosate, and heavy metals is kind of on everybody's radar right now. And one of the things that, that the industry talks about a lot is that heavy metals are everywhere, right?

Heavy metals are in soil. And then because of that, it gets sucked up into the food and we shouldn't really worry about it. What are, what are your thoughts on that?

Jaclyn Bowen: It's true. Heavy metals are everywhere. Heavy metals are naturally occurring, but there's a lot of really big caveats associated with that.

Yes, heavy metals are naturally occurring. They're naturally occurring in the Earth's crust that because of billions of years of volcanic forces literally resulted in that periodic table of elements that we all came to know and love to hate, quite frankly, back in middle school. You've got important building blocks of matter, heavy metals that are like zinc and certain types of chromium that are necessary for health.

You also have arsenic, cadmium, lead, and mercury that serve no purpose when it comes to human health. But nevertheless, as long as we're on this planet, they're not going away. But herein lies the problem.

Yes, they're naturally occurring, but at the same time, human causes have made it worse because of things like mining, fracking, industrial agriculture, the use of wastewater for irrigation, and the form of pollution ends up in the air, the water, and in the soil.

In the absence of federal regulation requiring brands to proactively test and therefore minimize the introduction of these heavy metals into finished products. They end up in the food products that are ultimately destined to be consumed by some of the most vulnerable populations. And it's one of those where it's always interesting.

I'll say to people things like, when was the last time you heard somebody say, Oh my God, I should not have eaten that macaroni salad at yesterday afternoon's potluck. I woke up with infertility. And that's when you think about food safety. For the most part, when we think about food safety in America, we think about things that are going to result tomorrow in an upset stomach, vomiting, that type of thing.

We talk about heavy metals, low level, acute exposure for years and decades, eventually manifest themselves in disease. Whether that's cancer, whether that's infertility, whether it's reproductive harm, nothing happens tomorrow. And because of that, it's one where because we don't think about it, we think that food is fine until we start changing that definition of food safety.

We talk about things even being naturally occurring, E. coli, also naturally occurring, but we know that through proactive food management approaches and food safety, we can minimize E. coli. We know things like rattlesnakes, great white sharks, we can minimize and mitigate our exposure. It's just a matter of proactively caring about these things.

And by doing so, making sure that we avoid as much as possible.

Matt Regusci: Fascinating. So, you've been doing this for eight years now. Obviously, the world eight years ago was very different than it is now. What do you see as the biggest changes and the biggest impact that you running Clean Label Project have seen over the last almost decade?

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah, it's interesting. I would say what one of the things that gives me a lot of hope is the number of brands that are proactively recognizing that consumers are the true arbiters of truth and safety and food quality. It's one where we can set federal policy, state policy, retail policy, all we want. And ultimately, consumers, especially moms, will serve as those chief operating officers of the households.

We are the determinants of ultimately what ends up in the pantry, the refrigerator, and ultimately on the dinner table. That, pulling back that power of, for consumers, and the literally consumers using a dollar as the vote that they believe in, that for me is the biggest change that I see, is that consumer education awareness absolutely pulls through industry and ultimately regulatory reform.

I think another thing that also that I'm really excited about is that you're starting to see some of this momentum as it relates to regulations. Like, you mentioned at the top, AB 899, FDA's Closer to Zero programs. Those things are a step in the right direction in the report.

Matt Regusci: Can you explain the AB 899 and the FDA's Closer to Zero?

Francine L Shaw: Before we go there, I have a question relating to what you just said. So, consumers are driving the driving force behind a lot of food safety that's happening from just general food safety and what's happening in that side of the industry as well as what you just talked about. What do you think is the best venue to get this information out to the public?

What is the best way to get it out to moms? Because I don't think they're fully aware of a lot of the things that are happening in general, unless they see it on the evening news. How do we make that happen? How do we make that happen?

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah, it's such a great question. Francine. I, I would say multiple levels.

What helps inform Clean Label Project standards and what helps us define that court of public opinion is going back to where consumers getting their information from. We know that consumers are obviously, I know for me, especially when I was a new mom leveraging social media, what are other moms talking about, influencers?

It's also one where let's be honest, your healthcare providers are that primary trusted source of information. So, making sure that we provide those assets and that information over to busy healthcare practitioners, pediatricians, family medicine, doctors, OBGYNs. All of that is essential as well as retailer partners, making sure that they know here's new emerging regulations on this front.

Here are new emerging concerns. So that when it comes to resetting and restocking and figuring out new hot brands to put on store shelves, all of these things are also factored in. So, from my perspective, it's where to get this information to parents is really where they're getting their information for me, I would go social media is the quickest, easiest way as well as healthcare providers.

Matt Regusci: Oh, yeah. Health care providers. Yeah. Like AAP, right?

Jaclyn Bowen: Absolutely. And Clean Label Project works closely with the American Academy of Pediatrics, but it's also one where from a brand perspective, the onus is on all of us to overcome this literacy barrier. And the challenge that we're up against right now, Francine, to also go back to your question is, if you've got consumers that are concerned and parents that are concerned, they're seeing these same exposés hitting the evening news.

What are we going to do as a food industry to combat that? What are we going to do them to help provide trust in our food system? That onus is on us to provide that education and that transparency to really help communicate. Here's what we're doing, independent of what is required from us in federal or state compliance level.

Here's what we're doing in order to minimize in a introduction of heavy metals into your food products and give that reassurance to consumers. Ultimately, it's one where, you know, consumers have a right to know what's in their food. Some of them want to pop the hood, kick the tires. They want to look at data.

Other parents just want to know, okay, I understand the issue. Show me what kind of products to buy and making sure we have solutions for all consumer types. Ultimately is what I think the North Star when it comes to brands really providing this literacy.

Francine L Shaw: Bottom line, we're all consumers. That's true.

We're all consumers. That is true. Consumers are going to drive the change in the industry.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it's one where like in the past, it's been when we think about food safety, it's been this really, this afterthought. I always use it as a comparison. You never walk down to the meat case aisle and see, Oh, fantastic. This chicken is salmonella-free.

Because safety is assumed because these are always, this is always the foundation of food safety. Until we start changing that definition, and that is really what Clean Label Project is about is that when you start looking at the new realities of food safety and food safety pressures, the realities of modern day food production, the creation of things like acrylamide, which is a bioaccumulative neurotoxin that forms through the mylar reaction that tastes great but isn't great for you.

So, it forms all of the yummy crust on French fries and cookies and baked goods or chargrilling of meats. That's, again, that's another reality. You think about heavy metals and the pressures that are applied through, like we talked about mining, fracking, industrial agriculture, those types of things. Well, 40, 50 years ago, did we have as much of that?

So, we talk about what are the realities of modern food safety pressures.

Matt Regusci: Yeah, and it's really interesting, too, because it's also regional, right? Like, there are a lot of other countries where we get our food from, where their environmental laws are very different than ours in the United States. And so the products that, because we're global society, we're bringing in products from all over the world. And while, I mean, we could test it really easily or whether or not it has pathogens or anything like that. There's not a lot of heavy metal testing being done. And even when we are looking at heavy metal testing, because there wasn't really an expectation from the FDA, they're testing at parts per million when we're testing here in the United States at parts per billion.

And it's, it's just a very different expectation. And, uh, yeah, I mean what we saw with Wana Bana and the cinnamon. There's also a lot of food fraud happening and iron. What is it you say? Heavy metals follow or metals follow metals. So.

Jaclyn Bowen: Hanging out with heavy metals. Absolutely. Absolutely. It's that purification process.

And just speaking a little bit of what you mentioned on the globalization of food supply and what that means from a heavy metal perspective, Clean Label Project is a close partner with an organization called Pure Earth. They're a global nonprofit that's focused on pollution prevention in developing countries, literally had a call with them this morning.

And what's fascinating along those lines and had a really good conversation out there. And one of those things that's what if I was to say, and all the work that we do related to infant, maternal health and other categories, the thing that keeps me awake at night is how we overcome, like this one problem is that right now, fantastic.

We are Clean Label Project is living its mission. We are increasing the awareness over the very real realities and public health threats that are associated with heavy metals. But here lies the problem. We've got new regulations that are coming out that set maximum thresholds of levels of heavy metals in finished food products.

But what we're doing is putting the proverbial regulatory cart in front of the science horse, right? I know that high quality and nutritious baby foods, finished product baby foods come from high quality nutritious ingredients and high quality and nutritious ingredients with low heavy metals come from good, healthy soils.

And good healthy soils are the byproduct good environmental policy. But during the course of all of this rulemaking that is currently taking place as relates to heavy metal, all of this court of public opinion, all of these narratives have yet to address the upstream variables that are ultimately those finished product predictors of quality.

So, the thing is, until we start shifting that conversation further upstream within the supply chain, until we start having very real conversations about the health of our soils, the health of our waterways. We will not solve the heavy metal and baby food problem. This is not a heavy metal and baby food problem.

This is a ubiquitous issue, as you indicated Matt, across all food problems. But the root of it is that ultimately there is a inextricable link between the health of the environment and public health. And that is something that we have not yet put enough of a microscope on.

Matt Regusci: Wow. Truth.

So, tell us about AB 899 and other states that are creating basically transparency laws for baby food and what that means for other food.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yes. So, when it comes to AB 899. So, this was a law that was passed in state of California representative or assembly member, rather Muratsuchi in California is the one that originally got it going. It went into effect January 1, 2024 and what it required was mandatory heavy metal testing on a lot based basis.

Effective January 1, 2025 is where it started requiring mandatory heavy metal testing and disclosure on a lot based basis, as well as some other adaptations as it relates to labels. Where this is interesting is, as you can imagine, for consumers, this is great news. Through transparency, you're able to go on literally baby food brand websites.

It's for products that are for kiddos under the age of two. Infant formula does have a carve out for under the age of two, able to go on brand websites and literally see heavy metal test results as relates to all of your kiddos, all the kiddos food, which is great. And through transparency, I believe that we can breed accountability and therefore making sure that this focus on heavy metals is going to be top of mind and present.

However, at the same time, there's a couple things that are missing from AB 899, a lot that kind of leaves some, some things that are yet to be desired. So, a few issues with AB 899, there's one important word that is missing from AB 899 and that word is nutrition. I know through all of our work with heavy metals, that can be the solution to all heavy metal problems.

When you have a kiddo, the first thousand days that we talked about is critically important. And ultimately what you want is you want to give your kiddo more of the good stuff, less of the bad stuff. You want good, healthy, nutritionally dense, healthy fats, healthy proteins, as well as fruit and veggies and all of those good things.

But the thing is, in the absence of saying the word nutrition, what can happen is that brands can start diluting, right? We can use something of like deionized water, sugar, synthetic ingredients, and all of a sudden your test results from a heavy metal perspective look great. But ultimately, is your kid getting all of the nutrients they need to grow and thrive?

What you really need is the balance of the two. So, with AB 899, it's great, it requires a mandatory heavy metal test results, but along those same lines, it's still a matter of, and it's really important for parents to recognize, you still want to make sure that you get that nutritional density. Now at that point, it's also a matter of looking at it for AB 899.

Heavy metals are naturally occurring. Like we talked about, you're going to find it in everything as long as you're on this planet. I look at thousands of analytical chemistry test results every year, but to a mom, that's not a trained analytical chemist. When you look at test results and you're like, there's arsenic or lead in my baby food that can be really concerning and rightfully so.

And that's where context is key. That's where it really requires brands as well as educators, as well as social media influencers and healthcare providers in order to give more information of what does this mean? Like, where's this arsenic coming from? It goes back to that whole thing of being naturally occurring.

It's not like brands are sitting there peppering their products with heavy metals. Quite the contrary, looking to minimize as much as possible, but making sure that you put those results into context that we recognize that, yes, you're going to encounter heavy metals, but what we're trying to do as much as possible is minimize. Minimizing it is really going to be key.

So, Matt, that's what's going on in the state of California now. glory of activity. I know Clean Label Project was included with an L.A. Times, CNN, it's been a lot of attention, which is really exciting because that also really speaks to what we do and what I do, which is focused on that education and advocacy.

Francine L Shaw: Right now as a mom sitting here thinking about the Hawaiian Delight I gave my children when they were like two years old.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah.

Matt Regusci: What's a Hawaiian Delight?

Francine L Shaw: Oh, my God.

Jaclyn Bowen: Remember that guy on the front of blue and red, right?

Francine L Shaw: No, this was okay. My children are older. My children are like in their 30s now. Okay. Oh yeah. So, it was at the time it was like a green color like pudding. It was amazing.

Matt Regusci: Oh, is that like a baby food? Hawaiian Delight baby food?

Francine L Shaw: In a little jar. It was in a little jar. It was Gerber. Gerber baby food. Okay. I was buying the best brand, and it was like a little dessert type thing. They ate their veggies and their whatever. I breastfed my children first initially, but then when they were allowed to eat baby food, it was just what I did.

Matt Regusci: I could just see you Francine, one for you, two for me, one for you, two for me.

Francine L Shaw: Exactly. Exactly. God, I love that stuff. But yes. So yeah, I don't know why, but that's initially that's just what's popping in my head.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah. So many of us have all of those memories of things as, as kids. I know my son had his personal favorites too.

And the thing is, like, when it comes to baby food, even like you mentioned, Gerber's amazing. They've, uh, Gerber feeds America's children and I know Clean Label Project works with Gerber and along those lines, it's one where I think 70% of their WIC SKUs are part of Clean Label Project. So, for me, one of the thing is making sure that we've got good, healthy, nutritious, low heavy metals for all of America's children.

And so they've done a lot of great work to help, especially as it relates to that campaign.

Matt Regusci: Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: I'm pretty sure that was the brand, and.

Matt Regusci: Yeah, I'm looking at it now. I had to research it up. So you're right. It is Gerber's Hawaiian Delight. You know, my wife liked the, I think it was like blueberry something that she would eat because my wife has been a nanny forever.

Francine L Shaw: Who knows? It was, I'm sure it was good.

Jaclyn Bowen: I have to be honest. Like I would, those ones that I've been a fan of is like the fruit with the oatmeal that's mixed in. You throw one of those in the gym bag. It's even every so often I encounter them here. And it's like, when you're on the go, those pouches are really convenient.

It's just like independent of what's inside. Moms that are listening can attest to it. It's one where I feel like what I basically eat is like cold macaroni and cheese, leftover French fries, and then whatever's left on the bottom of a pouch. So, it's one where it's, I would always be generally pretty happy when it's like, Oh, there's a little bit of oatmeal at the bottom of this.

I, yeah, I will definitely kill this.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah. So, my grandchildren now, the pouches, I will agree with you. It's like the applesauce or whatever.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah. They're just really convenient on the go. You've got your calorie, you know what your calorie count is. I hear you.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah. So anyway, we digress.

Matt Regusci: No, no, but it's true.

Like we perpetually have babies in our household doing foster care. And then I have eight boys right now in the house.

Jaclyn Bowen: You never have any food in your house then, Matt.

Matt Regusci: No, but they love the baby food. I'm like, seriously, guys, like, that pouch is for the baby. Uh huh. Yeah, whatever. And they run out the door.

Yeah, the pouches are very convenient.

Francine L Shaw: They are. We take them on the boat. My son has a boat. We take them on the boat because they're easy.

Jaclyn Bowen: Absolutely.

Francine L Shaw: Yeah.

Matt Regusci: Yeah, it's really lazy. You don't have to chew it. You just swallow. Oh, it's. Awesome. It's really good. You're gaining calories without really burning them because you're just like, I need that, right? The opposite.

Jaclyn Bowen: Kind of baby bird. Yeah.

Matt Regusci: So funny. Okay. Well, so CLP (Clean Label Project) has been in the news for both the baby food side with the new regulations that are coming out, but also there was a whole flurry of activity over the last couple of weeks with this protein study that came out, I know that was long time in the making.

You had been working on this project way before I even started at Ellipse Analytics. And this was like basically the second round of the protein stuff that you have done in the past. So, kind of explain what's going on with that and also what goes on with supplements in general? Because I think a lot of people are worried about supplements because it's not really regulated.

And so, I mean, protein powder is different than, you know, vitamin A, vitamin B or any type of vitamins you may take or whatever, but it's still something that is used a lot. And so he's kind of, that was a very long preamble for the question of what's going on with protein and.

Jaclyn Bowen: What's going on supplements.

Sure. And so as it relates to supplements are absolutely regulated, same under FDA still requirements around CGMP, but similar to this product category with dietary supplements, as well as protein powder, as well as the rest of the food for that matter, this whole concept of heavy metals is still something that's frequently thought of as an oversight.

So, when it comes to protein powder, I think the thing for me that makes it so interesting and compelling is here we are, end of January, you've got people setting New Year's resolutions, people looking to bulk up or slim down. So many people now I hear reaching for Ozempic or other types of kind of weight loss assistance.

And along those lines, they also want to making sure that they get more protein. It's harder to get that and maintain that muscle mass. And that's where people are looking for other solutions to help offset really, when it comes to getting that, getting more protein for their body. And it's such a quick and easy on-the-go solution.

That's what I think makes protein powder naturally just so common. And along those lines, when it comes to protein powder, again, people that are athletes of all capabilities want more of the good stuff, less of the bad stuff. So, it's a matter of CLP looking into it of, yeah, okay, well, what's actually in this.

So, as it relates to protein powder, again, flurry of activity as it relates to that, which is really exciting. Again, it goes back to the attention of not only heavy metals in protein powder, but really our overarching mission, which is to change that definition of food safety. Let's talk about heavy metals and some of these other threats.

But one of the things that some big takeaways on protein powder was that we saw that chocolate-based protein powders by far had more cadmium. And in general, we saw that plant-based on average had more heavy metals than your whey-based alternatives. So, I think those are some of the big takeaways for your listeners when it comes to reaching for protein powders.

Again, really amazing on-the-go solutions. You've got questions, especially if a protein powder that you personally love, reach back to those brands, ask what they're doing from a heavy metal perspective, because it's really about empowering you with more information to make more informed choices.

Matt Regusci: And it goes back to the servings too.

So, when you're looking at heavy metals, and this is something that I really hadn't thought of until I started working with you is it's not just heavy metals, but exposure to anything pesticides or plasticizer or whatever. It's not just the products that you're consuming. It's also the number of servings that you consume of that product.

So when we're, when we're looking at junk food or whatever, we know like, okay, it's junk food, whatever, but we're not eating that many of it. Francine and I talk about this all the time. The difference between you're going to go get a candy bar.

You're, you're going to get that occasionally, except for Francine.

I think she eats like one a day or two or day or three a day or something like that. It's like her meal replacement. But like, when you're thinking about protein powder, you're taking that sometimes multiple times a day, and so it, the servings add up as you're adding to it. So, if it has a lot of heavy metals, and you do, you have like two or three or four servings, then you're, you're hitting your threshold that the FDA would, would expect you to, to hit.

And that's not good.

Jaclyn Bowen: You're exactly correct. It kind of goes back to everyone has their own, makes their own lifestyle choices. And when you look at the backpack, you're looking at that serving size. So, it's a matter of looking at it as, especially when we talk about athletes of all capabilities of, is it one where it's just, okay, I'm making one scoop.

This is part of my on-the-go smoothie solution. Or is it one where. You get some of your gym bros that are taking multiple servings of this that again, going back to that whole thing of trying to only make, you know, the best choices for their bodies. It's one where again, protein powder is great. It's just a matter of if this is something that's really concerning, speak to those brands, speak to the products, especially the brands of the products that you love, ask more questions about what they're doing to minimize heavy metals.

This is a collective problem across the food industry, but especially for people that are really trying to make more informed choices for themselves. This is where it's just important to serve as, be your own consumer advocate. Ask those questions, especially on social media, demand answers.

Matt Regusci: Francine, do you use protein powder or protein drinks or anything like that?

Francine L Shaw: I do some of the protein drinks, but I only occasionally do I drink them. It's funny you ask that, because I just put one in my, one or two in my shopping cart, like, for Giant, but I don't drink them that often.

Matt Regusci: Francine is like you, Jackie. She's like her own farmer. So, she has her own meat that she has, so. You get your protein, Francine, you get your protein from just meat, right?

Meat, cheese, that type of stuff. Chocolate from the milk in the chocolate.

Francine L Shaw: I love cheese. Love cheese. Yes. And I am a meat eater. Peanut butter. I have a jar of peanut butter in my house that's designated for me that I will eat out of the jar.

Jaclyn Bowen: Same girl, same. My thing would be, yeah, my guilty pleasure is definitely peanut butter cups.

Francine L Shaw: Um, yes. Oh

Jaclyn Bowen: God, me too. Yes. And now, like my son in my freezer loves peanut butter .

Matt Regusci: Well, you know, it's, it's okay.

So, I was just at the doctor and they told me I needed more protein. I've been losing weight. You saw that, Jackie, thank you for recognizing that last time I saw you. And they were like, Hey, listen, you're also with losing weight. You're losing muscle too. You're losing way more fat, but you are losing muscle and you need to eat. They told me one gram of protein per pound. And I'm like, dude.

Jaclyn Bowen: That is a lot of protein. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. So, that's like 200 grams of protein. And this is around the same time that we were writing up this white paper, Jackie.

And I'm like, Oh Lord, where am I going to get this protein? So, yeah, definitely was interested in those protein powder brands that were good because yeah, I got to get, I got to get it somewhere. And it's really hard at my weight to eat one gram per pound of weight. And so, yeah, I can see why people have like multiple servings of protein powder, multiple protein drinks.

Jaclyn Bowen: A hundred percent.

And I think Matt going on that too, we talked a little bit about how, when you're talking about protein powder, you've got whey-based protein powder, but you have so many people that are reaching for plant-based proteins and whether it's one where for me, I'm a vegetarian. Eat a lot of cheese.

I also, I do eggs. I'm not vegan. Eggs, cheese, peanut butter, as well as other types of pulses, legumes, so your chickpeas, lentils, those types of things. But along the same lines, there's some plant-based protein powders and what we see from a plant-based perspective, we see that there's hemp-based, plant-based, pea, rice, soy.

What we see in general for those that are reaching for plant-based protein powders is on average pea-based is going to be the cleanest if you're concerned about heavy metals. What we see on average is that your soy, your rice, and we've heard this before, soy has a higher propensity to pull lead from the soil.

Rice, as we've heard before, rice has a higher propensity to pull arsenic from the soil. So, we also see that come through when you look at plant-based protein powders. But again, choosing the vanilla versus the chocolate helps minimize things like cadmium. But along those lines, it's one where protein powder, obviously a really great on-the-go solution.

I know that there's been certain times where I'd have to like go and find my blender in order to recommit, but I used to love my morning routine of protein smoothies on the go. It's, I've been working from home. really since COVID. So, I haven't really, I've had more time to prep a real morning breakfast.

You get other whole food solutions. Like, we talked about your egg, your cheese, your chocolate, of course, Francine, but along those lines, it's also as it sounds like you're already doing that, that when it comes to changing up your diet, you're changing up your team, making sure to work with your healthcare providers to making sure that you're getting everything that you need to grow and thrive, and make sure to stay healthy.

It's interesting for me because as a vegetarian, it was interesting. I had a whole blood panel done and I'm fine where I'm from a protein perspective, but where I've actually always struggled is vitamin D. So, along those lines, it's one where from a societal perspective, we're also prone to think about obviously skin cancer.

But when it comes to that, it's one where you get some really good vitamin D comes from the sun. And it's interesting. If you look at studies that show that people that are in like colder climates, higher elevations, really get less vitamin D. And this can become a chronic thing. It can actually contribute to things of like colon cancer, things like that.

So, it's also for me, it was fascinating that here I am. I talk about, you know, supplements. I talk about Clean Label Project, all this stuff, go and get my blood work recently. And it's like, deficient in vitamin D that for me, the big supplement that I end up reaching for is really making sure I get that vitamin D is what I have the hardest time with protein, not as much, but vitamin D is my issue.

Francine L Shaw: So, I take vitamin D supplements.

Jaclyn Bowen: See exactly. It's because we've had the, you wear the sunscreen, you try to stay out of the sun. It's, Matt, been negative 15 here in Colorado. I'm not going out there anytime soon. So, along those lines, yeah, supplements can be a really great way protein powders included to compliment a healthy lifestyle. It's just a matter of making sure you do your diligence to figure out what you need to do.

Francine L Shaw: Right. So, protein powder. I believe that my daughter takes, uses the protein powder and I would almost, it's plant-based because she doesn't eat meat. Not sure if it's vegan or vegetarian at this point, not a hundred percent sure, but I would almost bet, I would bet she is plant-based.

Matt Regusci: Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: I'd go along the lines of vegetarian, but yeah.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah, there's a lot of, there's a lot of great plant-based protein powder solutions out there. But again, there's so many options out there, not to mention like flavor profiles, price points, where they're located, different types of certifications, like whether you want something that's certified organic, halal or kosher. It just goes back to when it comes to that heavy metal and this new frontier of food safety from that consumer perspective for any of the brands that you work with.

Go back to them, pop the hood, kick the tires. What are you doing to help minimize my exposure to heavy metals?

Matt Regusci: So, right now, Clean Label Project, there's a war going on within your social media. And that study came out, CNN took it, and then it went viral. It went crazy, crazy viral. Um, so great job with the PR side of things, Jackie.

But then of course, right, consumers started coming online and looking for what are the safe products. And nothing's been posted about, I mean, just the results of the overall macro view results, the study we're done, but no micro view of, you know, other than the Clean Label Project-certified protein powders.

No, here were the top baddies and here were the top goodies. Using my British humor here, wasn't there. And so that kind of freaked out and there was like a bunch of debate going on Clean Label Project, social media, where people were like, they just don't want to get sued because, you know.

Jaclyn Bowen: Can't fault us for that. Yeah.

Matt Regusci: But there's a lot of questions being asked and, and, you know, consumers want to know like, who are the goodies and who are the baddies? Why isn't Clean Label Project posting that on there? Other than not wanting to get sued, which is a huge.

Jaclyn Bowen: Which is huge. Yeah, which is a good one.

Yeah, it's, it, no, it's a great question. So, the first thing I would say, Clean Label Project has a handful of brands that we have worked with that already proactively test, which is amazing. There's a variety of different products. There's hundreds, if not thousands of protein powders out there, of which Clean Label Project tested like a good sampling of those things.

But as it relates to that, the whole thing that we were looking to provide is really this macro commentary on here's the state of the industry. And if we've tested all of these that make up 80 percent of the retail sales in America, there's something going on here. So, from a consumer perspective, it really is that call to action that whatever protein brand you are working with that you love, that your family loves, that is your go-to ask them.

Because here's the thing, Matt, you know how much I'm going to ask Francine. Francine, when it comes to a heavy metal test, let me tell you how heavy metal testing works. Okay. We're going to get into the details, but it's going to be sound really interesting and fascinating. There's this instrumentation, it's called an ICP MS, intracoupled plasma mass spectrometry.

Okay. And what it does is the way this instrument works, they're about $350,000. Okay. What this instrument does is you get a sample, you prep the sample. It heats the sample up to literally the temperature of the surface of the sun, boils off everything else except for the fundamental kind of like the elements, those heavy metals that exist.

Okay. So, a heavy metal test, I'm going to quantify it down to parts per billion for you. Parts per billion for you, Francine. And at that part per billion level, what I'm going to do a single digit parts per billion, which that's equivalent to going off the top of my head here, it's something of a drop of water in Olympic size swimming pool.

How much do you think that test costs to do? And I'm gonna do it for arsenic, cadmium, lead, and mercury. How much do you think that test cost?

Francine L Shaw: God, I have no idea, but it's gotta be expensive.

Jaclyn Bowen: Doesn't it?

Francine L Shaw: Sounds very expensive.

Jaclyn Bowen: $125, Francine.

Francine L Shaw: Really?

Jaclyn Bowen: You can have that answer, but for whatever reason, little Clean Label Project, the non-profit, is responsible for giving this to the global monoliths, multi billion dollars, or spend $125 and get it done yourself.

$125 and all of these brands can figure out the levels of heavy metals in their protein powder. This issue of knowing these levels is absolutely something that can be identified, tested, and minimized. Brands just need to voluntarily give a damn. That's the difference.

Francine L Shaw: So, it takes me back to like the whole applesauce, right?

Matt Regusci: Yeah.

Jaclyn Bowen: Absolutely.

Matt Regusci: Francine, if they would've tested that.

Jaclyn Bowen: It's something, this isn't something that cannot be addressed. The motivation, the economic incentive, the consumer awareness, and therefore the consumer pull to using that dollars as a vote for the food systems you believe in has to exist so that these investments in this type of food safety take place.

Francine L Shaw: So, do you market that?

Jaclyn Bowen: That it costs $125? No, it's not even, you don't even, I, you don't have to come to Clean Label Project.

Francine L Shaw: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying to market, that's not what I'm saying to market: not market that you could do it for $125, market that a company could spend $125 to have this done, but they really just don't give a shit. So, they don't do it.

Jaclyn Bowen: That's a really, it's a really interesting question, Francine. Maybe that's what needs to happen. I'm like, listen, I guys, $125 and this information can be yours. Yeah. It's very, it's really interesting, isn't it? It's fascinating though, cause like along those lines, when it comes to heavy metals. And even when it comes to these...

Francine L Shaw: My head is like just the things that could be done with that information right now that, 'cause that's the way my brain works.

Matt Regusci: Isn't this fascinating? I obviously don't tell you enough about what I do, Francine.

Francine L Shaw: That stuff that could be done with that information right now, easy.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah, it's the same thing of, it's one where you can test for, if we're talking like, and this is the one where that's like, today we're talking about heavy metals.

Let's do the same thing. Let's talk about pesticides. You test for pesticides. And like, Francine, I can test for 400, 500 different pesticides, different polarity, the most commonly used pesticides in America, again, getting down to single digit parts, billion. 500 of them. I'm going to give you the answer to Francine.

How much do you think it's going to cost?

Matt Regusci: 500 individual chemicals within the test.

Jaclyn Bowen: $350 and you can know the answer too.

Matt Regusci: Jaclyn, we did increase prices. It is $395 for us. Labs are less expensive that are, that, that, that do this there. So, yes.

Francine L Shaw: And maybe in reality, maybe I'm being too harsh on corporations. Maybe in reality, they don't know.

Matt Regusci: They don't know.

Francine L Shaw: That it costs that little.

Matt Regusci: Well, no, it depends on who it is. I mean...

Francine L Shaw: In general, though, what percentage knows that it does cause this? What percentage knows that? And why don't they know?

Matt Regusci: Jackie, do you think the industry just relies too much on the COAs?

Jaclyn Bowen: Oh, that's a whole set. Yes.

Matt Regusci: I think the industry goes, "Hey, my supplier is sending me a COA and I trust my supplier. So, I'm going to believe what's on that COA." And so they are not testing. I mean, I'm not speaking for everybody because most of the people companies, the Clean Label Project side of things, they are testing their ingredients when it comes in, they're not just relying on the COAs, but I think as an industry at whole, they're looking at it and they go, I trust my supplier.

My supplier is sending me this product. They're telling me what's in the product in terms of nutrients. They're telling me, like, they're showing me their heavy metal tests, their bacteria tests, you know, blah, blah, blah. And, and they just trust it, as opposed to having a, a within their supplier approval process, a randomized, I mean, it could just be randomized tests of that product coming in. And you know, they have enough conversations with their suppliers of, "Hey, listen, what we had tested internally and what you said in your COA, there's a huge discrepancy. What's going on?" That would allow the conversation and I'm not saying everybody should test every single batch of ingredient that comes in, but if it's random testing, that would, I think that would change a brand's view of their suppliers and the supply chain very, very quickly.

Jaclyn Bowen: I mean, I would add to that, Matt, too. That like the other thing too, is when it comes to heavy metals, not all ingredients are heavy metal risk ones that just have a higher potential if they're planted in the ground, given its proximity.

Like we talk about pollution, hotspots. root crops, rice, soy, chocolate. There's certain ingredients that are just, I have a higher propensity, just like how different fruits and vegetables do a better job of sucking up different vitamins and minerals that we need. Same thing exists as it relates to heavy metals.

It's just one for those types of commodities, for those types of crops and ingredients. It's just a matter of having this better risk assessment of ah, The feds don't require me to voluntarily look at heavy metals when it comes to this root crop. But I'm going to anyway, just because I know that this is an area that's an emerging and this isn't, this is an issue.

So, yeah. But Matt, going back to your point on Certificates of Analysis or COAs, I think that's a huge part of it too. I don't want to call them like one of the things that I frequently see is that I talk to brands all the time around heavy metal test results. Like, yeah, well, we get a certificate of analysis and we know we're non-detect.

I'm like, yeah, but let's start talking about levels of detection and levels of quantification. And so then I always use the analogy when I explain to people of LODs, LOQs and COAs, just this cocktail of all these letters. But when you think of like an LOD and LOQ, I equate it to when you go to the eye doctor and you go to the eye doctor, let's say that he or she says, okay, perfect.

Can you read the top line? And you're like, K F J Z. Perfect. What's the lowest line you can read? It was, I'm squinting. I can't really read the bottom line, but the second to bottom line, I can be like, I think it says. K M B F L. And they're like, yep, that's right. This is LOD, LOQ. Level of detection is where you can see something is there.

Level of quantification is where not only can I see it, but I can confidently tell you what the answer is. What I see from some analytical chemistry test results is they give a false sense of comfort and security because they will use an elevated level of detection. They'll say, we can detect it here.

We can only quantify it here, and it is non-detect. Well, you didn't go low enough on that eye test. You can actually see it down to this level. That's the difference. Brands will get a false sense of comfort and security, they'll think they're non-detect for all these heavy metals. Meanwhile, we know state of California when it comes to AB 899, that level of detail, six parts per billion, unless that laboratory that you're using a credited lab, ISO 17 06... 17 025, 65?

Matt Regusci: 17 025.

17 065 is for certification.

Jaclyn Bowen: Thank you. And unless they get down to that single digit parts per billion, quite frankly, that analytical chemistry test results isn't worth a piece of paper that it's been printed on. So, it's one where there's a lot to be desired when it comes to even that level of granularity, that sensitivity when it comes to analytical chemistry testing.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. So, like when we're talking with potential customers at Ellipse Analytics. And they're talking about how we hear this all the time. Like, oh no, we're non-detect. And so my certification manager, his first question is non-detect to what? Like, are you looking at parts per million? Are you looking at parts per billion?

How much parts per billion are you looking at if you are looking at parts per billion? Because at  Ellipse Analytics, we're looking, I mean, we can see down to, you know, we can see down to parts per trillion almost. But what we can quantify is like two to three parts per, parts per billion. And so our limit detection is very, very, very low.

But a lot of labs will have much higher limits of detection because it's cheaper. The further down you go, the harder it is. And so, yeah.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah, absolutely.

Matt Regusci: Francine, any more questions?

Francine L Shaw: No, that was very informative.

Jaclyn Bowen: Thank you.

Francine L Shaw: The cost is shocking. The expense or the value. Say the value. Yes. Not the cost, but the value is like, uh, just unbelievable and why they aren't investing because it's an investment in their brand is shocking to me.

I would have had no idea.

Jaclyn Bowen: The other reality, which I hope isn't the case. But the thing is when you've got to remember that when you go out and you get a test result, you're obligated to do something with that data.

Matt Regusci: Yeah.

Jaclyn Bowen: Once you know the answer and you're a holder of that data, you're obligated to do something with it.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. So, it goes back to that corrective actions. You know, looking at stuff and they're like, well, I found it, but I, you know, then they never followed up on it. That's the issue. What's the next step we deal with, right?

Jaclyn Bowen: And then the other reality that you have to look at it too, is that right now, because there isn't a federal maximum pass-fail criteria.

Okay. They get a test result and it comes back and it's gray. It says 12. Well, what does that mean? Is that good? Is that bad? What do I do with this data? The feds don't... I don't have any good criteria one way or another. So, it's. I can understand in multiple reasons why heavy metals aren't tested for, but it's one where that's what Clean Label Project is really looking to change, bring awareness to the issues, bring awareness to the long term public health threats that are associated with it.

And categorically across all food is bring through that awareness. The consumers make a decision.

Francine L Shaw: Let's look at the other side of that. If they do find something and they correct it, the marketing that they can do in the sales that they create.

Jaclyn Bowen: Yes, yes.

Francine L Shaw: And it's that's what the brands need to understand because that's what moms and dads are looking for.

Matt Regusci: Right?

Jaclyn Bowen: You're 100 percent correct. And it goes back to, I always say it's one where I've been involved with the organic certification for a long time, very personally and professionally invested in it. But Clean Label Project is actually pretty closely aligned with the regenerative agriculture movement of now that we've created these different soil and water problems, how are we going to fix it?

And that's what it goes back to. There's an amazing story to talk about. Yeah, these are the realities of heavy metals. Yes, they're naturally occurring, but human causes had made it worse. But you know what? Within our brand, here's how we are voluntarily working to make it better. There's an amazing story that goes along with being part of the solution as opposed to just pointing out the problem.

Francine L Shaw: I hate to even ask this question, but I'm going to make a statement, actually. I think that some of it may be generational. I think that maybe some of the people running the companies are of a generation that don't understand the importance. And as that fades out and is replaced with a different generation, do you think maybe some of that will go away and it will become more important to new leaders of some of these organizations?

Jaclyn Bowen: I think that, I guess I would say like a few things. From Clean Label Project's perspective, one of the things that's pretty amazing for me is both a parent, a public health practitioner, as well as executive director of Clean Label Project is that the data shows that not only does CLP help reduce with heavy metals by making sure that these food safety systems are being proactively implemented, but it's also good in that terms of consumers are actively seeking this out because consumers want it.

So, the big thing there is I also think that the economics can help make it convincing in terms of yes, it's good for public health. Yes, this is good for the environment. And yes, this is good for the bottom line. So, I think that there's a lot of safety in the status quo. It's one where the protein powder category has been exploding and rightfully so, like I said, bulk up, slim down, people are reaching for weight loss drugs, wanting to, you know, maintain muscle mass. It's such a great solution. It's just a matter of yes, and. Making sure it's not an, or it's an and statement. Yes, and it's good for you. And we've also made sure that we've proactively looked to mitigate the heavy metal risk that goes along with it.

It's that simple.

Francine L Shaw: I'm sorry. Maybe I didn't make my question clear. I'm talking about the decision makers, it's corporations.

Jaclyn Bowen: Oh yeah, and for sure, along those lines too, of them recognizing that this is something that consumers care about and recognizing, get ahead of it. Consumers wanting access to less information, I don't see that as a reality.

Consumers are only going to want increased transparency as we look towards the future.

Matt Regusci: Yeah. Yeah. That is so true.

One thing to end with here, at a conference recently, you were telling me that... your talk was to the industry, hey, as baby food gets better. And baby food manufacturers are finding better ingredient suppliers, cleaner, let's say, let's use that way, cleaner ingredient suppliers, those other ingredient suppliers that they no longer use are disappearing. So, where are they going?

Jaclyn Bowen: Yeah, you're absolutely right. I use that as a little bit of a case study that I share all of this just chaos that has been the world of baby food over the past decade, just with congressional investigations and state laws and recalls and  Operation Fly Formula that took place.

And the thing is that what we see in light of all of these changes that right now, baby food brands are actively rejecting lots. They are actively rejecting ingredients with elevated heavy metals. And because they're doing that, they have changed the status quo. It's not like those suppliers are sitting back there.

We're like, Oh, boo, I guess I'm going to go and change this into livestock feed. No, those lots are just being redirected into other industry categories, food categories, or other countries that don't have the level of attention and focus and laws that are focused on heavy metals. Unsuspecting people, categories, and countries will be the recipients of these different ingredients with elevated heavy metals.

So, for brands, I may be listening, what are you going to do to make sure that you are not one of them? That's the question because it's one where the baby food industry has changed the status quo. That's just the baby food industry. That is just the tip of the iceberg.

These are most vulnerable populations. But those same ingredients he saved heavy metal problems are now being redispersed into the rest of the food category. But how do you make sure that you protect your brand from being one of them?

Matt Regusci: Yeah.

Francine L Shaw: Right.

Matt Regusci: And that goes back to that testing of the COA. That's what the baby food companies are doing right now.

Jaclyn Bowen: They're voluntarily choosing to think about food safety differently, spending, finding that $125 to go and get that heavy metal test. Especially... it doesn't have to be on all ingredients. You're looking at it from a risk assessment perspective. Those root crops, spices, hemp-based, rice based ingredients, those are the ones that just in general, not always, have a higher propensity of having heavy metals and making sure that you basically trust but validate to make sure that those COAs are correct.

Matt Regusci: Awesome.

Well, we talked about this podcast being somewhere between a half hour to an hour long, and we are right at the hour mark, Jaclyn. We want to respect your time. Francine, do you have any further questions before we let her go?

Francine L Shaw: No, but I'm going to make a statement. There are a lot of executives that listen to this podcast, a lot of decision makers.

So, hopefully even if we've reached one of that, that's going to make that decision to have a test. That's going to be amazing. So, thank you for sharing that information.

Matt Regusci: Yeah, adding randomized supplier verification tests on making sure that those COAs are accurate. That would make a huge difference.

Jaclyn Bowen: Trust but verify? You don't have to have CLP certification but recognize that the future of food safety is food toxicology. Heavy metals, pesticide residues, packaging migration issues are a modern food safety problem. And independent of CLP, it's a matter of doing your diligence in order to minimize the introduction of these contaminants for my family as well as yours.

Francine L Shaw: And I do post some of these on Instagram. I will make sure that this one does get posted on Instagram. So, you know, for moms will see it.

Jaclyn Bowen: I appreciate it. Thanks so much guys.

Matt Regusci: Okay. And on that note, Jaclyn, Francine, don't eat poop or lead and mercury and arsenic.